Greggo

No problem, Ray... We'll just have to let it go at each of us seeing things differently because each of us lives differently. I understand that it's impossible to justify being the "innocent victim" of Government or Education or Credit/Debt or Insurance or Healthcare or Law or Unions without also admitting that you're getting exactly what you deserve because you chose to become entangled in them for the financial and emotion security you thought they would provide... ...for once your feelings of security become dependent upon those heavily corrupted sectors... you deserve to share their fate... for better or for worse. Greg

Everyone inherits the consequences of the unresolved moral issues of their parents. Whether we choose to resolve them... or to pass the same unresolved issues onto our children is our responsibility. And don't think for a moment that dumping your emotional baggage onto your offspring won't blow back onto you big time later on in life. Everything we do creates just and deserved consequences... whether it's right or wrong. Greg

Wow, Betsy... you amaze me... ...and here I thought only religious people held onto that kind of exclusionist ideological bigotry. Do you actually believe that outside the ideological boundaries of your group of Objectivists there's nothing but unprincipled mobs of people? Had you considered the affect of your attitude on others? You're overlooking the reality that while Objectivists certainly advocate American freedoms, they do not hold a monopoly on them. There is not just one "Zero Sum" torch of freedom to hold up. There are as many as there decent people who are willing to hold them. For there are many different views which overlap that same territory... and a wide variety of people who love American freedom at least as much as you do. To jealously regard it as belonging exclusively to your ideology is silly. I'll be at the July 4th TEA Parties, and will be happy for anyone else who shows up... no matter who they are or what they believe... as long as they love America and its freedoms. That's the beauty of a coalition... all kinds of different people uniting under a common cause. Greg

Hi Mark, That's good. Yaron Brook is doing his part very effectively. I also saw many other points of light at the TEA Parties... ...a wide cross section of people who spontaneously came together with a common purpose. It's the secret to all of this... a coalition. American freedom is bigger than just one ideology. Greg

You continual reference to hiding tells me a lot about yourself and how you think, Ray... ...for your experience of the government you deserve is quite different from mine because you relate to government differently than I do. So as a natural consequence you are far more dependently entangled in the corrupted third party payer (Government Education Credit/Debt Insurance Healthcare Law Unions) Ponzi scam as the source of your financial security. And that vulnerability to losing your security if the pyramid collpases is what makes you uneasy... and is why you express your unease as if it belonged to me. The recent economic events have revealed that is doesn't take much loss of confidence in a pyramid scam... just a few financially paranoid tremors can bring it down... and anyone else along with it, to the exact extent of their dependence upon it. In contrast... things will always go well for us because we invested elsewhere for our security. Greg

Well put... I take a lesson from the grapes on our vines. (we're going to have a "bumper crop" this year) They grow and ripen independently of who happens to be in political office. So in a similar manner, the enjoyment and personal satisfaction my life gives me has little to do with the government... ...and if it ever does... I'll know exactly what to do about it. Greg

While your historical conclusion might hold true for groups... ...it is completely irrelevant when you try to apply it to the unpredictable spontaneous independent actions of sovereign self motivated individual American Capitalist enterpreneurs. Greg

Trying to reverse engineer imaginary "innocent victim" situations doesn't negate the reality of moral law and of your personal responsibility for your own actions and the just and deserved consequences they bring. Greg

(shrug...) That all depends on a wide variety of contributing factors. Where you choose to live... how you choose to live... who you choose to live with... your own behavior in regards to your personal security... your own awareness and presence of mind... whether or not you're all doped up on pharmaceuticals. Old doesn't always necessarily mean stupid. In my opinion, a 90 year old grandmather belongs with her family for her care and protection. My 88 year old Mom lives with us. Greg

Ok, Ray. It'a always good for you to know exactly what you are disagreeing with. Greg

Tom's comment (even though deemed innapropriate by others) nevertheless raised an interesting topic... Seems to me that for a philosophy to have any real power, it would be a "stand alone application"... ...and acting on it would change your own life for the better regardless of what others choose to do with their lives. I've found the world around me to be quite accomodating to any changes made in my own life. But you can't fake it... it has to be real. And the world will let you know if it is... or it isn't. Greg

That's ok with me, Ray... You're perfectly free to interpret what I say in any manner you see fit according to how you live your life. The just and deserved consequences set into motion by my actions are the only final judge of whether or not what I'm doing is morally right... and I perfectly happy to abide by the reality of that impersonal objective and indisputable verdict... ...because it is exactly what I deserve . Greg

Nature is amoral. Only human behavior is within the context of morality. Greg

That's your free choice, Ray. This is the context: "Man's Search for Meaning" (page 138-9) (emphasis mine) "Certainly, it was a considerable acheivement for a guard or foreman to be kind to the prisoners in spite of all the camp's influences, and, on the other hand, the baseness of a prisoner who treated his own companions badly was exceptionally contemptable. Obviously the prisoners found the lack of character in such men to be especially upsetting, while they were profoundly moved by the smallest kindness received from any of the guards. I remember how one day a foreman secretly gave me a piece of bread which I knew he must have saved from his breakfast ration. It was far more than the small piece of bread which moved me to tears at that time. It was the human "something" which this man also gave to me-- the word and look which accompanied the gift. From all this we may learn that there are two races of men in this world, but only those two-- the "race" of the decent man and the "race" of the indecent man. Both are found everywhere; they penetrate into all groups of society. No group consists entirely of decent or indecent people. In this sense, no group is of "pure race"-- and therefore one occasionally found a decent fellow among the camp gaurds. Life in a concentration camp tore open the human soul and exposed its depths. Is it suprising that in those depths we again found only human qualities which in their very nature were a mixture of good and evil? The rift dividing good from evil, which goes through all human beings, reaches into the lowest depths and becomes apparent even on the bottom of the abyss which is laid open by the concentration camp."

In every encounter between perpetrator and victim, there is a tacit agreement for abuse to take place. If a person does not see their part, they will remain an angry blaming victim of the next perpertrator. The real danger of self destruction is when a person becomes addicted to angrily blaming others for the false "feelings" of righteousness. And bringing this back to the original topic of the thread... What I just stated perfectly applies to how people relate to government. How you respond to government is what determines the government you deserve. And each of our experiences of getting the government we each deserve is different depending on how we live our lives. Greg