Greggo

Do we have the government we deserve?

278 posts in this topic

You say that by recognizing that the great majority of men are morally depraved you feel relief, because they will get what's coming to them when the civilized world collapses. That it will mean, for you, that there is justice in the world.
Henrik will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think his position is that justice is already being served to the "immoral majority," in the form of taxes, regulations, and so on. Of course, the problem with this, as I pointed out in my previous post, is that these punishments are affecting the good guys at least as much as (if not more than) the "depraved" ones.

I agree. There's no waiting for a just moral reckoning of a collapse... for everyone is already getting the government they deserve right now.

Any war brings collateral damage, and economic wars are no exception. But since "good guys" is on a sliding scale and they are also getting the moral justice of the government they deserve in direct proportion to their participation in and dependence for their financial security on the economic sectors infested by the leftist socialist third party payer Ponzi scam.

When faced with a plague, it's wise to avoid contact with the infected and to cultivate a healthy immune system to fight off disease. This also holds true for the current economic pandemic. The American Capitalists who limit contact with the plague ridden economic sectors, and who follow a good financial health regime of decency responsibility productivity solvency and frugality, will be just as unaffected as if they were living in Galt's Gulch.

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I agree. There's no waiting for a just moral reckoning of a collapse... for everyone is already getting the government they deserve right now.

Any war brings collateral damage, and economic wars are no exception. But since "good guys" is on a sliding scale and they are also getting the moral justice of the government they deserve in direct proportion to their participation in and dependence for their financial security on the economic sectors infested by the leftist socialist third party payer Ponzi scam.

When faced with a plague, it's wise to avoid contact with the infected and to cultivate a healthy immune system to fight off disease. This also holds true for the current economic pandemic. The American Capitalists who limit contact with the plague ridden economic sectors, and who follow a good financial health regime of decency responsibility productivity solvency and frugality, will be just as unaffected as if they were living in Galt's Gulch.

I do not agree, not everyone is getting the government they deserve. I can guarantee you that I am not getting the government that I deserve.

In an irrational society the good will pay a much larger amount than the evil and for most it will not be by choice.

I do agree that people can and should attempt to limit their contact with the "infectend" area of an irrational society, but there is no escaping the infection's effects fully. I would also offer that the attempts at escaping that most people seem to be pushing is part of the reason that we are in this situation. When the opportunity to stand up and fight is shunned and instead people keep their mouths shut and run and hide, we will get what we have now.

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I do not agree, not everyone is getting the government they deserve. I can guarantee you that I am not getting the government that I deserve.

...but you're not the final judge of that, Ray.

Reality is.

The moral reality of the just and deserved consequences of your own actions.

In an irrational society the good will pay a much larger amount than the evil and for most it will not be by choice.

...only if you give your sanction as their victim.

I do agree that people can and should attempt to limit their contact with the "infectend" area of an irrational society, but there is no escaping the infection's effects fully.

Yes... to the exact degree of your participation in and dependence on those infected economic sectors for your financial security and emotional comfort. It is the need for comfort that makes people weak and dependent on the parasite infested economic sectors... and you pay dearly for that comfort.

I would also offer that the attempts at escaping that most people seem to be pushing is part of the reason that we are in this situation.

A slight correction... I'm not included in your "we".

For there is a real practical value in refining your life over time by planting seeds in rich fertile soil where they will grow to an abundant harvest... instead of throwing them onto a public government sidewalk.

When the opportunity to stand up and fight is shunned and instead people keep their mouths shut and run and hide, we will get what we have now.

That's strange... my mouth isn't shut and I'm certainly not hiding as that's a very poor business practice. I'm simply willing to give up the false sense of security in the leftist socialist third party payer system to freely assume the risks and rewards of being a sovereign American.

That's the moral beauty of America... for it allows each person to get exactly the government they deserve which perfectly matches how they live.

Greg

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Greg,

So, by your standards the good people that are born into corrupt societies are getting exactly what they deserve?

So, the people that were massacred in Tiananmen Square who paid a very high price were sanctioning their governments actions? I do not think so, when the brutes show up at your door they will not care whether you sanction them or not.

So, you do not see the giving up or loss of comforts as effects caused by the corrupt part of society as a negative on your life? You do not see the effects of doing many actions yourself as a loss, I offer that you might want to read Adam Smith's book.

If you live in this country and pay taxes, deal with irrational people, buy goods, sale goods and many other things, then you are included in the we.

Again, if you think that all American's are getting the government they deserve, I must disagree. Look around, there are still a lot of good people that are unfortunately not getting the government they expect nor deserve. I do not think a lot of the people on this forum are deserving of having half their income taxed away by the government they do not agree with and have fought against.

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Greg,

So, by your standards the good people that are born into corrupt societies are getting exactly what they deserve?

So, the people that were massacred in Tiananmen Square who paid a very high price were sanctioning their governments actions? I do not think so, when the brutes show up at your door they will not care whether you sanction them or not.

Hey Ray,

I'm speaking specifically about America because here is where we are living. People can only be the victim of their own corruption... for there is no one else to blame for the government they are getting that they only think or feel they don't deserve.

If you're getting it... you deserve it.

Reality doesn't lie.

So, you do not see the giving up or loss of comforts as effects caused by the corrupt part of society as a negative on your life?

No.

Just to be clear...

...those economic sectors which have been corrupted by the leftist socialist third party payer scam are:

Government

Education

Insurance

Law

Healthcare

Credit/Debt

Unions

Simply examine your own budget and note the money you pay into those categories... and you'll discover exactly the degree of your own entanglement.

You do not see the effects of doing many actions yourself as a loss, I offer that you might want to read Adam Smith's book.

I offer that you might read Atlas Shrugged.wink-1.gif

Everything is spelled out there quite clearly.

If you are not free...

...and you want to be free...

...change the way you live.

If you live in this country and pay taxes, deal with irrational people, buy goods, sell goods and many other things, then you are included in the we.

That may be your view...

...but it isn't mine, because while I live in this country and pay taxes...

I choose who I deal with.

I choose who I buy from.

I choose who I sell to.

Again, if you think that all American's are getting the government they deserve, I must disagree. Look around, there are still a lot of good people that are unfortunately not getting the government they expect nor deserve.

Reality says different.

Un "fortune" ate is superstition.

Those who believe the lie that the government is to blame for how their lives are turning out are simply excusing their own failure to become the kind of American who deserves to live free of the government that others deserve.

I do not think a lot of the people on this forum are deserving of having half their income taxed away by the government they do not agree with and have fought against.

I do... if what you are describing is accurate.

Whoever needs the comfort and security of depending on the leftist socialist third party payer system deserves to pay the going rate. It will bleed them dry... and they deserve to be bled dry for becoming tainted by their participation in the corruption.

So this doesn't sound so negative, I can explain one business principle of how to be free.

Everything you buy has all of the taxes paid by the company who produced it already factored into the purchase price. No one in their own business pays taxes. They pass the cost onto the end user. If you are in your own business you retain parity between the value of what you sell to others and what you buy from others... regardless of economic conditions.

Anyone who follows these simple principles of American Capitalism: Decency Responsibility Productivity Solvency and Frugality... will live a good and prosperous and happy life regardless of government. But you have to really mean it, because no one can fool the reality of getting the just and deserved consequences of our own actions.

Greg

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Greg,

You obviously are the one that needs to reread Atlas Shrugged as you missed what principles are, as it does not matter that this is America because principles apply to all of "reality." And it seems you obviously have no tie to reality because as long as you live in a society, even on the fringe, you still have to deal with certain unchosen aspects.

One again your failure to acknowledge that everything is tied together within a society and that there is no escaping certain parts of it fully, no matter how much one checks their financial ledger. Of course to see that one needs to understand principles and not just hints or tips.

I have read Atlas Shrugged more than twenty times and I understand what Ayn Rand has put forth for contemplation which was not just tips or hints on business. So, I offer, once again, that you read more than just her fiction as there is a lot to learn. One of those things you could learn is the definition of freedom in a political context, which is defined as the absence of physical coercion. Do you choose to pay the exact monetary sum of taxes that you pay per year? Or, if left free would you choose to pay more or less? Did Ayn Rand choose to pay the amount that she paid? I think not and she was asked a similar question at the Ford Hall Forum in 1976;

person from audience: Do you pay income taxes, and if so, why?

Ayn Rand: Yes, because they are taken from me at gunpoint.

So, was Ayn Rand getting the government she deserved? And did you also choose the specific taxman that you deal with?

Those who fail to recognize that the government is intangled into almost every aspect of their lifes right now are the ones that are not tied to reality. Did the people that had their houses taken through eminent domain deserve what they have gotten?

I would offer that you check your premises as most of the people on this forum do not need nor are they asking for government comfort or support. By your standards, you will get what you deserve when the government comes and nationalizes your company. And even if the government does not nationalize your company, as long as they keep raising the taxes you will have to keep raising your prices which will put your out of country competitors at an advantage that you will not be able to make up. So, your principle does not work in reality. And Capitalism is built off of the trader principle which means I bring a value and you bring a value and we come to a mutual agreement for mutual benefit without government interference or coercion.

You have a lot to learn, but it seems you care not to learn what principles really are and how they should be used as a guide in concrete situations.

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While much of you're saying is true, Ray...

...note how each of our responses to government are completely different.

You blame government... and I don't.

You believe that you don't deserve the government you are getting...

...while I know that I do.

You believe that the government you don't deserve is to blame for making your life the way it is...

...while I know that I'm solely responsible for making my life the way it is.

Now which of us is closer to reality?

Even though we both are living in the same country with the same government... the government I'm getting is different from the government you're getting...

Why is this so?

Because my response to government is different from yours.

My response to government is to live in such a manner that what the government does has far less impact on my life than it does on your life...

...because that's the government I earn the right to deserve.

Just because Ayn Rand was taxed, did that mean that she did not live a good and happy life and did not enjoy the freedoms of America? Did she hold the government responsible for her own unhappiness? Did she play the angry blaming victim?

No... to all of the above.

As to taxes...

My approach is to be decent responsible productive solvent and frugal enough to pay them. It's easy to do when you have no monthly mortgage payments, no monthly car lease payments, in fact no monthly car payments at all, no credit card balances, no personal loan debts, no medical insurance payments, no life insurance payments, no home insurance payments, no legal obligations to pay, no student loans to pay off, no union dues to pay.

People are causing their own financial problems by seeking to possess without owning... and paying into the third party payer pyramid entitlement scam hoping to get back more than they put in.

Americans used to take pride in being solvent...

...proud of what they worked fair and square to earn the money to own their possessions outright. But today, people are actually proud of what they don't rightfully own, but can only possess by way of credit and debt and loan and lease. These are the ones who dug their own financial pit they now have fallen into...

...and that cannot be blamed on the government.

The leftist socialist third party payer pyramid scam is where comfort needy people pay money to collectivise the risk for which they have abdicated their own personal responsibility and want others to pay their way... and that feeling of comfort costs them dearly.

So each of us is getting exactly what we deserve for how we live.

And as to Atlas Shrugged... I took away from it something completely different than you did.

Greg

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Greg,

First off you have no idea of the actions I have taken or will take in response to our government as I have never stated what I do, only what the government does to people. And your weak attempts at denying what the government does to other people does not make your government any different than my government. In other words, the way one thinks of their government does not change that which the government does. So, I would state that I am the one that is really perceiving reality while you seem to live in some made up world in your own little dreams.

I also have never stated that I am not achieving happines in my life, but that does not mean that more could not be achieved if the government would get out of the way. For example, whether you acknowledge it or not, in the last 16 years there have been over 800,000 pages added to the federal register. And whether you want to acknowldege it, those 800,000 pages worth of laws restrict large parts of our social interactions that keep all of us from doing or achieving things that we might have if those laws were not there.

I would also offer that there is nothing wrong with a person taking on a rational amount of debt, and many people in the history of this country have done so. Just to point out a few, Cornelius Vanderbilt, James J. Hill, Andrew Carnegie, George Eastman, John D. Rockefeller, Sam Walton, and the list could go on. So, your statements about being in debt have nothing to do with political freedom and hence only shows your lack of understanding principles and objective definitions.

Ayn Rand stated, "happiness is that state of consciousness which proceeds from the achievement of one’s values." When a government makes constant attempts to stop a person (directly or indirectly) from the achievement of one's values then it is perfectly rational and moral to be angry and react in a certain way. For a person to stop their attempt at the achievement of one's happiness/values or to scale back so as not to be tied to any values, they have lost the fight and will only embolden the enemy to take bolder actions, study history for examples. A war can only be won by attacking the enemy not by hiding behind walls hoping the enemy will not get through.

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Greg,

First off you have no idea of the actions I have taken or will take in response to our government as I have never stated what I do

I know that you clearly stated what you believe about the government:

(Ray previously wrote...)

I can guarantee you that I am not getting the government that I deserve.

This is the polar opposite my knowing that I'm getting exactly the government I deserve.

only what the government does to people. And your weak attempts at denying what the government does to other people does not make your government any different than my government.

Then how can you account for the marked difference in how each of us regards the government? For you it is treating you in an unfair way that you do not deserve... and yet for me the earned freedom from it is exactly what I deserve for it perfectly matches how I live.

In other words, the way one thinks of their government does not change that which the government does.

...but it does change the way it affects your life... and that's why it's unfairness to you matters... and its "unfairness" to me is not an issue as far as I'm concerned, because I live in such a manner so as to render it moot.

If you don't believe me, I'll be happy to openly offer specifics as to exactly how I do it.

So, I would state that I am the one that is really perceiving reality while you seem to live in some made up world in your own little dreams.

That's ok... it will always seem that way to you, because I live very differently from how you live.

I also have never stated that I am not achieving happines in my life, but that does not mean that more could not be achieved if the government would get out of the way.

Really? Wow... we truly are on two totally different wavelengths. The government hasn't put so much as a nick in my goals or my happiness because I live in such a manner that the government doesn't matter... and that's why to me it's the government I deserve... and to you it isn't.

For example, whether you acknowledge it or not, in the last 16 years there have been over 800,000 pages added to the federal register. And whether you want to acknowldege it, those 800,000 pages worth of laws restrict large parts of our social interactions that keep all of us from doing or achieving things that we might have if those laws were not there.

I can understand that you're speaking honestly from your own experience and of the government's effects on your own life... but you're not speaking for me because I live a different way.

I would also offer that there is nothing wrong with a person taking on a rational amount of debt, and many people in the history of this country have done so. Just to point out a few, Cornelius Vanderbilt, James J. Hill, Andrew Carnegie, George Eastman, John D. Rockefeller, Sam Walton, and the list could go on. So, your statements about being in debt have nothing to do with political freedom and hence only shows your lack of understanding principles and objective definitions.

I have nothing against those who need to borrow money from others even though I don't need to. But since living on credit is slavery, I have much more useful things to spend my money on than to waste it on debt maintenence... like building another small house.

Ayn Rand stated, "happiness is that state of consciousness which proceeds from the achievement of one’s values."

I totally agree...

...and one value I'm happy to acheive is to live in such a manner as to be impervious to the detrimental effects of government on my life.

Galt's Gulch is not just a place... it is how you live.

When a government makes constant attempts to stop a person (directly or indirectly) from the achievement of one's values then it is perfectly rational and moral to be angry and react in a certain way.

That's a fantasy... especially in America.

No one can ever stop you from doing what is morally right. And that's why I don't waste emotional energy angrily blaming the government... and instead deploy my energy in more useful positive constructive pursuits of real value.

Do you see the difference in each of our attitudes now?... and how the difference in each of our reactions leads to taking different actions that lead to a completely different life?

For a person to stop their attempt at the achievement of one's happiness/values or to scale back so as not to be tied to any values, they have lost the fight and will only embolden the enemy to take bolder actions, study history for examples.

A war can only be won by attacking the enemy not by hiding behind walls hoping the enemy will not get through.

That is your own experience and so applies to you and your life, for I've not scaled back on my values or my goals... but am happily free to pursue them... because doing what is morally right is the best way I know of fighting the war.

The real enemy is inside of you. So to the exact extent that you defeat that one... the external world graciously acquiesces to your inner victory over yourself.

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness are inalienable rights. No government can take those away from you... unless you're the kind of person who deserves to lose them.

I'm not sure how much further you want to take this... but I'll be happy continue to answer your objections as long as you see fit to raise them... not in in any attempt to convince you of my view... but until you realize that I remain unconvinced by yours.

Greg

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Greg,

When a criminal comes to one's door and steals a person's money, did that person get exactly what they deserve? I think not, but it seems by your irrational standard they would have. And in the same manner, when the government uses it's force against the good, then that person is also not getting what they deserve. When a government is corrupt and acts in irrational ways the good will not get what they have worked to achieve and deserve.

Once again you use freedom in an improper context of which you cannot, or at least have not, defined.

A lot of people could offer specifics on all sorts of illogical ideas, that does not make them reality based nor correct. An example is that religious people claim all sorts of specifics about how to pray and become happy while wasting years studying illogical ideas that have no tie to reality while also lying to themselves about a supposed happiness that they cannot even define.

I do not expect to change your illogical views of the world as I consider you to illogical to rethink your premise. Your ideas remind me of the religious fanatics that keep stating their premises without the intelligence to back it up with facts from reality. I invite you to step out of your little fantasy world and take a look around at reality. But, I do not expect you to do so, like most people that believe in fantasies, it seems you lack the courage to see the truth and reality.

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It appears to be Greggo's view that 'injustice' is an invalid concept. If that is not his view, he can (and should) offer some concrete instances of injustice.

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Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness are inalienable rights. No government can take those away from you... unless you're the kind of person who deserves to lose them.

So black people deserved the slavery that they got? And the segregation? How about Vietnam war draftees? Tell me how an 18 year old kid deserved to be sent off to some pest hole across the world against his will and get his guts blown out? Please tell me how that little bastard got exactly what was coming to him.

Remember you said No government can take those away from you.

Germany never had a bill of rights, but did the Jews deserve the crematoria? How about the mother that has to choose which one of her children will have their skulls bashed against a cement wall and dumped like so much garbage into a stinking pile of corpses?

How about if you were lucky enough to make Stalin's daily extermination lists? F*** 'em they got the government they deserve, right?

The only way you can claim to avoid the government's intrusions is if you live off of some wilderness with no contact to the rest of society. Or to live in a pure fantasy world of your own construction.

That's a fantasy... especially in America.

No one can ever stop you from doing what is morally right. And that's why I don't waste emotional energy angrily blaming the government... and instead deploy my energy in more useful positive constructive pursuits of real value.

This represents such an evasion on such a massive scale as to render argument superfluous. The headlines are chocked full to the brim of exactly this sort of thing happening by the government everyday.

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Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness are inalienable rights. No government can take those away from you... unless you're the kind of person who deserves to lose them.
That's a fantasy... especially in America.

No one can ever stop you from doing what is morally right. And that's why I don't waste emotional energy angrily blaming the government... and instead deploy my energy in more useful positive constructive pursuits of real value.

This represents such an evasion on such a massive scale as to render argument superfluous. The headlines are chocked full to the brim of exactly this sort of thing happening by the government everyday.

I think that Greggo expressed himself somewhat incorrectly. Innocent people *can* be harmed by evil, even without the sanction of the victim. But I think that what Greggo was getting at, is that, absent the sanction of the victim, the innocent man who is victimized by evil, is not hurt *really* deeply, the harm does not "go all the way down". He will have the same serenity that Kira had when she died at the end of We the Living. I think that, thanks to Ayn Rand, I will have that kind of serenity myself, if I fall prey to misfortune in the future.

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I think that Greggo expressed himself somewhat incorrectly. Innocent people *can* be harmed by evil, even without the sanction of the victim. But I think that what Greggo was getting at, is that, absent the sanction of the victim, the innocent man who is victimized by evil, is not hurt *really* deeply, the harm does not "go all the way down". He will have the same serenity that Kira had when she died at the end of We the Living. I think that, thanks to Ayn Rand, I will have that kind of serenity myself, if I fall prey to misfortune in the future.

I disagree with you and Greggo. If an evil person takes a person's land, taxes away their productive gains or shoots them, they are going to feel pain and possibly die and it will not matter if that person sanctioned it or not. Sure, people can keep a certain mindset while going through difficult, unchosen situations, but man is more than just a mind. Man is one integrated whole, mind and body. Once again, Greggo's ideas sound like they come from a mystic that believes in a dichotomy between the mind and body.

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Hi all,

I'm sorry that lately I haven't been able to keep up with all of your excellent thought provoking responses, but I promise that I will as soon as I find the time...

Bear in mind that I'm speaking specifically about us... now... today... in America... and not the dead past. And that this is focused just on how we relate to the government we deserve.

So please continue making your case as airtight as possible that you're the helpless innocent victims of an unfair government.

And I'll do my best to show you how you brought the consequences of your own actions upon yourselves by how you live.

be back soon... :)

Greg

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Hi all,

I'm sorry that lately I haven't been able to keep up with all of your excellent thought provoking responses, but I promise that I will as soon as I find the time...

Bear in mind that I'm speaking specifically about us... now... today... in America... and not the dead past. And that this is focused just on how we relate to the government we deserve.

So please continue making your case as airtight as possible that you're the helpless innocent victims of an unfair government.

And I'll do my best to show you how you brought the consequences of your own actions upon yourselves by how you live.

be back soon... :)

Greg

Greg,

You have not answered a single question with a straight answer, if you answered questions at all. Generally you have been spouting your illogical ideas with nothing substantial to back those illogical ideas. You use words that you do not know the proper use of nor do you even attempt to define what is meant when asked. You claim to be a fan of Ayn Rand which is obviously false as you do not even have a basic understanding of her philosophy nor do you care to learn about it. So, speaking for myself, I have nothing to gain from your illogical statements and look forward to you not coming back at all. The main reason I keep posting to your illogical comments is to dissuade you from coming back. Another reason is to let the real fan's of Ayn Rand (to include the non-Objectivist) see that you have an improper understanding of her ideas so they will not use you as an example.

With no regard,

Ray

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If you don't believe me, I'll be happy to openly offer specifics as to exactly how I do it.

I have nothing against those who need to borrow money from others even though I don't need to. But since living on credit is slavery, I have much more useful things to spend my money on than to waste it on debt maintenence... like building another small house.

Greggo, I have no axe to grind in this debate. In fact I believe that in the long run, each human being, no matter how innocent that they think they are, gets the government they deserve. This easily sidesteps the "innocent children born under bad governments" problem. In the short run, this or any government can ruin an innocent person. It only takes a split second for an incompetent police officer to fire a stray shot while on some bogus "war on drugs" mission that could happen in any suburb, city, or even rural area. Your argument, by my analysis, definitely holds true in the long run. We are still free here to make a variety of choices that you have outlined that can effectively isolate us from our government to a large degree, thus making it a negligible factor in our lives.

I am getting very interested in home construction - especially some things I have seen using shipping containers and other very affordable means to take myself "off of the grid" so to speak. I would be interested in some specifics that could help me in home construction and dealings with things like zoning and property taxes. Thanks in advance if you can help.

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Bear in mind that I'm speaking specifically about us... now... today... in America... and not the dead past. And that this is focused just on how we relate to the government we deserve.

Ah, principles change with time is it? Listen, I nailed your ass on that and you well know it. A shift like yours above will not slip by on a board like this. "Oh, that's the past!" You just quoted a villain from Atlas Shrugged.

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If you don't believe me, I'll be happy to openly offer specifics as to exactly how I do it.

I have nothing against those who need to borrow money from others even though I don't need to. But since living on credit is slavery, I have much more useful things to spend my money on than to waste it on debt maintenence... like building another small house.

Greggo, I have no axe to grind in this debate. In fact I believe that in the long run, each human being, no matter how innocent that they think they are, gets the government they deserve. This easily sidesteps the "innocent children born under bad governments" problem. In the short run, this or any government can ruin an innocent person. It only takes a split second for an incompetent police officer to fire a stray shot while on some bogus "war on drugs" mission that could happen in any suburb, city, or even rural area. Your argument, by my analysis, definitely holds true in the long run. We are still free here to make a variety of choices that you have outlined that can effectively isolate us from our government to a large degree, thus making it a negligible factor in our lives.

Hi Gattaca,

Yes. That has been my experience...

This is still America...the land of the free and home of the brave.

And we still have the freedom to choose to assume the risk and to experience the adventure of becoming "modern pioneers" if that is what we see fit to do.

And while total isolation from government is impossible... I found that's really not necessary to live a happy life. It's well within our reasonable grasp to live in such a manner as to relegate government to playing the minor inconsequential role in our life that it should.

I am getting very interested in home construction - especially some things I have seen using shipping containers and other very affordable means to take myself "off of the grid" so to speak. I would be interested in some specifics that could help me in home construction and dealings with things like zoning and property taxes. Thanks in advance if you can help.

Hey, funny that you would mention containers...

...about a year ago I helped an architect build a home out of three of them joined together, and so gained some familiarity with the process. They have their good points and their bad ones. Good ones: Cheap. Instant structure. Bad: Limited room/door/window design options.

If you rest them on a fairly high foundation of concrete piers, you can mitigate any grading or drainage issues by isolating them from the ground, and you'll easily be able to get under them to install the plumbing and electrical infrastructure.

Just tell me what you'd like to know and I'll be happy to help out.

Ironically, practical real world discussion of what people can actually DO was what I thought I'd find in a forum like this, instead of arguing over theories and semantics...

...but the arguing can be fun, too. wink-1.gif

Greg

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Ironically, practical real world discussion of what people can actually DO was what I thought I'd find in a forum like this, instead of arguing over theories and semantics...

Ah well, Philosophy: Who Needs It?

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Greg,

When a criminal comes to one's door and steals a person's money, did that person get exactly what they deserve? And in the same manner, when the government uses it's force against the good, then that person is also not getting what they deserve. When a government is corrupt and acts in irrational ways the good will not get what they have worked to achieve and deserve.

My experience has been completely different from yours. The government hasn't prevented me from getting exactly what I deserve... but I took a completely different approach to living than you did.

Briefly, here's my approach to government taxation:

Be decent responsible productive solvent and frugal. Own a business. Own a home. Live modestly and debt free. And importantly... stay clear of the corrupt financially draining third party payer economic sectors: (Government Education Law Insurance Credit/Debt Healthcare Unions)

Anyone who takes that approach will easily be able to afford to pay taxes while living a good and happy life. Happiness was valued highly by Ayn Rand, and following her advice in Atlas Shrugged has sure made me happy... because I'm free to do what is morally right. smile.gif

Once again you use freedom in an improper context of which you cannot, or at least have not, defined.

Ok... I'll be more specific as freedom has more than just one facet:

Freedom to do what is morally right.

Freedom from the emotional need to angrily blame others

for the just consequences of my own failure to be decent.

Freedom to assume the risk of enterpreneurial Capitalistic ventures.

Freedom to enjoy the rewards of the afore mentioned ventures.

Freedom from the need to demand that the government serve me at the expense of others.

And of course the inalienable American freedoms of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

A lot of people could offer specifics on all sorts of illogical ideas, that does not make them reality based nor correct. An example is that religious people claim all sorts of specifics about how to pray and become happy while wasting years studying illogical ideas that have no tie to reality while also lying to themselves about a supposed happiness that they cannot even define.

Well... I've never advocated studying anything. Although I can admit to using the internet to learn how to do useful things like getting practical tips on how to do plumbing so I can do it myself. (It's a lot of fun.)

I do not expect to change your illogical views of the world as I consider you to illogical to rethink your premise.

You can't be illogical and do plumbing... or it won't work!lol-1.gif

Your ideas remind me of the religious fanatics that keep stating their premises without the intelligence to back it up with facts from reality. I invite you to step out of your little fantasy world and take a look around at reality. But, I do not expect you to do so, like most people that believe in fantasies, it seems you lack the courage to see the truth and reality.

We'll just have to agree that we see things differently and let it go at that, Ray.

Because I consider it a fantasy to angrily blame the government for how your own life is turning out...

...when you are responsible for making your own life what it is...

...because it is your own actions which have set into motion the consequences you are experiencing now.

(I'll try to catch up with the other comments...)

Greg

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If you don't believe me, I'll be happy to openly offer specifics as to exactly how I do it.

I have nothing against those who need to borrow money from others even though I don't need to. But since living on credit is slavery, I have much more useful things to spend my money on than to waste it on debt maintenence... like building another small house.

Greggo, I have no axe to grind in this debate. In fact I believe that in the long run, each human being, no matter how innocent that they think they are, gets the government they deserve. This easily sidesteps the "innocent children born under bad governments" problem. In the short run, this or any government can ruin an innocent person. It only takes a split second for an incompetent police officer to fire a stray shot while on some bogus "war on drugs" mission that could happen in any suburb, city, or even rural area. Your argument, by my analysis, definitely holds true in the long run. We are still free here to make a variety of choices that you have outlined that can effectively isolate us from our government to a large degree, thus making it a negligible factor in our lives.

Hi Gattaca,

Yes. That has been my experience...

This is still America...the land of the free and home of the brave.

And we still have the freedom to choose to assume the risk and to experience the adventure of becoming "modern pioneers" if that is what we see fit to do.

And while total isolation from government is impossible... I found that's really not necessary to live a happy life. It's well within our reasonable grasp to live in such a manner as to relegate government to playing the minor inconsequential role in our life that it should.

I am getting very interested in home construction - especially some things I have seen using shipping containers and other very affordable means to take myself "off of the grid" so to speak. I would be interested in some specifics that could help me in home construction and dealings with things like zoning and property taxes. Thanks in advance if you can help.

Hey, funny that you would mention containers...

...about a year ago I helped an architect build a home out of three of them joined together, and so gained some familiarity with the process. They have their good points and their bad ones. Good ones: Cheap. Instant structure. Bad: Limited room/door/window design options.

If you rest them on a fairly high foundation of concrete piers, you can mitigate any grading or drainage issues by isolating them from the ground, and you'll easily be able to get under them to install the plumbing and electrical infrastructure.

Just tell me what you'd like to know and I'll be happy to help out.

Ironically, practical real world discussion of what people can actually DO was what I thought I'd find in a forum like this, instead of arguing over theories and semantics...

...but the arguing can be fun, too. wink-1.gif

Greg

I'm thinking along the lines of having perhaps 8 of them surrounding a central area that could be a main room which would have a high ceiling. Perhaps like at this site: www.quik-build.com. I am looking at ways to get under that 165k all-in price. Welding is a big issue, glazing too. Probably would outsource those things. Also thinking of very high concrete piers coming up from the foundation, so I could park my truck underneath. The whole thing for me is finding a suitable and affordable lot and setting. My brother and I look forward to doing all the work that we can.

Anyway, so as to not get off of the topic of this post. It is in this way that you avoid hatred of mankind - by paying no attention to the faults of mankind and thus the governments they create. Roark paid them no mind. Just occupy yourself with things that you exercise a great deal of control.

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It appears to be Greggo's view that 'injustice' is an invalid concept. If that is not his view, he can (and should) offer some concrete instances of injustice.

Hi Rose,

Here's a concrete instance of injustice:

Angrily blaming (unjustly accusing) others

for the just and deserved consequences

set into motion by your own failure to be decent.

Greg

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How about Vietnam war draftees? Tell me how an 18 year old kid deserved to be sent off to some pest hole across the world against his will and get his guts blown out? Please tell me how that little bastard got exactly what was coming to him.

Hi Thoyd,

While I can't really speak about things that happened before I ever existed or for which I had no direct responsibility.

I can speak from my own personal experience as a Vietnam War draftee...

And while being just a kid I considered it an injustice when I was called to serve... but the reality of the experience proved to be valuable beyond measure as it broadened my view of the real world.

The only way you can claim to avoid the government's intrusions is if you live off of some wilderness with no contact to the rest of society. Or to live in a pure fantasy world of your own construction.

It's not as extreme as you think it is... but it is a real world of my own literal construction. And the government only minimally intrudes on my life because I live in such a manner so as to deprive it of reasons to intrude.

And I'm not sure what you're talking about "intrusions"...

How about some specifics...

Exactly what is the government doing to you?

That's a fantasy... especially in America.

No one can ever stop you from doing what is morally right. And that's why I don't waste emotional energy angrily blaming the government... and instead deploy my energy in more useful positive constructive pursuits of real value.

This represents such an evasion on such a massive scale as to render argument superfluous. The headlines are chocked full to the brim of exactly this sort of thing happening by the government everyday.

You got me really curious now, Thoyd... what is the government doing to you that prevents you from doing what is morally right?

Greg

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