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Criminalizing airflight passengers

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"panopticon society"

I never thought I'd see Foucault quoted on an Objectivist forum :D (I am pretty certain nobody will quote Derrida)

It was a good book!

Maybe not Derrida, but Richard Rorty was David Kelley's doctoral advisor at Columbia. Good ideas (often out of context) are where you find them.

Michel Faoucault's idea of the "panopticon society" is one such. Foucault pointed out that in times past, the law was about punishment. However, we now have law as control. The purpose of prison is not (only) to punish the perpetrator, but the methodology of prison is to control every aspect of the prisoner's life. That sounds like life "on the outiside" today. We have cameras everywhere at street level, spy in the sky satellites. In a Simpson's skit, Lisa buys a copy of Al Gore's book and from the supermarket scanner to the supersecret government agency, the Vice President gets the good word that someone actually bought a copy of his book. Cute, but the point is made. We are under constant surveillance and constant control. Now, you cannot leave the country without a passport. We live in a prison with a big yard.

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What I got away from the book, is that in the Panopticon society every man was watching every other man (i.e. just as with the guard tower, you never really knew who was watching you). The main difference between this and today's UK (and Patriot Act US) is that in both those latter cases it is the State that watches you. Sure, you could be watched anywhere, and you are now a suspect; but it won't be your neighbours that denounce you to the cops.

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"panopticon society"

I never thought I'd see Foucault quoted on an Objectivist forum :D (I am pretty certain nobody will quote Derrida)

It was a good book!

Maybe not Derrida, but Richard Rorty was David Kelley's doctoral advisor at Columbia. Good ideas (often out of context) are where you find them.

Michel Faoucault's idea of the "panopticon society" is one such. Foucault pointed out that in times past, the law was about punishment. However, we now have law as control. The purpose of prison is not (only) to punish the perpetrator, but the methodology of prison is to control every aspect of the prisoner's life. That sounds like life "on the outiside" today. We have cameras everywhere at street level, spy in the sky satellites. In a Simpson's skit, Lisa buys a copy of Al Gore's book and from the supermarket scanner to the supersecret government agency, the Vice President gets the good word that someone actually bought a copy of his book. Cute, but the point is made. We are under constant surveillance and constant control. Now, you cannot leave the country without a passport. We live in a prison with a big yard.

I don't think passports are for the purpose of leaving the country. They are for returning to the country (getting back in) as well as for getting into another country. If another country didn't require passports (or visas) to get in, then there probably would be no need for them just to get out.

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I don't think passports are for the purpose of leaving the country. They are for returning to the country (getting back in) as well as for getting into another country. If another country didn't require passports (or visas) to get in, then there probably would be no need for them just to get out.
You do need a passport to exit the US, but you don't need a passport if you don't travel abroad. This is true in just about every Western country I've lived in, including Australia now.

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I don't think passports are for the purpose of leaving the country. They are for returning to the country (getting back in) as well as for getting into another country. If another country didn't require passports (or visas) to get in, then there probably would be no need for them just to get out.
You do need a passport to exit the US, but you don't need a passport if you don't travel abroad. This is true in just about every Western country I've lived in, including Australia now.

Not sure how your answer addresses my point. But the reason is that you need a passport to get back in or to get into another country. There is no customs or stamping of passports when you leave, only when you enter a country.

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Not sure how your answer addresses my point. But the reason is that you need a passport to get back in or to get into another country. There is no customs or stamping of passports when you leave, only when you enter a country.
I get exit stamps quite routinely, but not as frequently from the US as from other countries. Just an FYI.

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Not sure how your answer addresses my point. But the reason is that you need a passport to get back in or to get into another country. There is no customs or stamping of passports when you leave, only when you enter a country.
I get exit stamps quite routinely, but not as frequently from the US as from other countries. Just an FYI.

The State Dept. website says:

AIR TRAVEL

ALL PERSONS traveling by air outside of the United States are required to present a passport book or other valid travel document to enter or re-enter the United States.

LAND AND SEA TRAVEL

ALL PERSONS traveling by land and sea outside of the United States are required to present a passport book/card, or other valid travel documents to enter or re-enter the United States.

I didn't find a reference to a requirement for leaving the country. As for other countries, I guess you travel more than I do, but I've never had mine stamped when I leave a country.

So, I suppose if you could find a country that would let you in without a passport, and you had no intention of returning to the US, you could get on a plane and just go.

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I didn't find a reference to a requirement for leaving the country. As for other countries, I guess you travel more than I do, but I've never had mine stamped when I leave a country.

So, I suppose if you could find a country that would let you in without a passport, and you had no intention of returning to the US, you could get on a plane and just go.

I think bar some exceptions (Saudi, Israel) the administrative burden at borders will be directly proportional to the attractiveness of the country to potential immigrants. This is most visible in visa issues: the US is an absolute pain in every possible way (takes a long time, sometimes feels like a lottery, incredibly complicated) whereas countries like Italy and India will happily let you in with less than a week's notice (admittedly I can use my visa waiver for the US but this is of limited use for the purposes I'm interested in).

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I just flew back from the US and no government official checked my passport; in fact, I didn't even pass a checkpoint when leaving the States.

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Unruly Passengers Disrupt Northwest Flight 243

Yup, it's that same flight again...

Sources tell Fox 2 that a flight from Amsterdam into Detroit Metropolitan Airport was held on the tarmac after landing because of unruly behavior by some of the passengers.

The source says four men from Saudi Arabai were saying something in Arabic that alarmed four on-board Federal Air Marshals. The Marshals speak Arabic. A decision was made to stop the plane on the tarmac away from the passenger terminal and remove the men from the plane.

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No, it was flight 253, not 243.

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I don't think passports are for the purpose of leaving the country. They are for returning to the country (getting back in) as well as for getting into another country. If another country didn't require passports (or visas) to

I don't think passports are for the purpose of leaving the country. They are for returning to the country (getting back in) as well as for getting into another country. If another country didn't require passports (or visas) to get in, then there probably would be no need for them just to get out.

When you cross the border into Canada you don't need a passport to leave the US or to enter Canada. You now need one to get back into the US.

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No, it was flight 253, not 243.

Ah, correct. Still, it was on the same airline and same route. Since this is one of the major trunk routes between the US and Europe, I guess the purpose might be to scare people away from flying.

What I find interesting is that it says they were "saying something in Arabic that alarmed [the] Marshals." This means either that the marshals sat right next to them, or that they were actually shouting in Arabic.

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What I find interesting is that it says they were "saying something in Arabic that alarmed [the] Marshals." This means either that the marshals sat right next to them, or that they were actually shouting in Arabic.

Yep, spotted that too. Are marshals positioned next to risky profiles?

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