Jim A.

The "Health Care" bill passes

88 posts in this topic

Yesterday was a dark day, though many people didn't think so.

Arguments in favor of the health care bill were made from emotion, not reason, and this polluted the parliamentary procedure process, as far as I could tell. And this is all because a certain percentage of the populace want to wrest a guarantee of health and long life from the government, since reality offers no such guarantees.

The government is there for our protection (protection from force), not to provide anything to anyone. Apparently we've forgotten that.

So what's next? What else will people want the government to provide for them? More free education for their children, for sure. But I'm sure they'd like alot more than that. And when will the government, one day, say: "You know, there are alot of people out there who don't like our system of freebies and handouts, and they are expressing their ideas--in writing, speech, and the visual image. These ideas are a threat to our regime--I mean, system. Therefore these ideas need to be curbed somehow--whether by having a tax on certain publications or visual media, monetary penalties for certain things said in public, or just outright prohibition on expression, in any from, of these ideas"? That is my biggest fear from all of this.

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Yesterday was a dark day, though many people didn't think so.

Most of the Ayn Rand fans thought it was - apparently even the ones who took the really stupid advice to vote for Obama and his minions. Apparently this is much worse than a "theocracy", who would have thought? (I am certain that rationalizations that this *is* evidence of theocracy are forthcoming.)

The government is there for our protection (protection from force), not to provide anything to anyone. Apparently we've forgotten that.

As I've said for years: You don't live in a free country. Act accordingly.

So what's next?

Another 2 years of Obama and his minions spending money that doesn't exist and setting the stage for even worse hyperinflation as they try to print it up. Then don't be surprised when he's re-elected.

It would be nice to see some organized effort to actually build up the Tea Party into a real organization with "Objectivists" providing intellectual guidance for its platform, so that whatever better people remain in the country could consider something besides non-voting, but I don't expect it. Even if that happened, it won't be enough. Perhaps someday, enough Ayn Rand fans will understand that Atlas was not just a novel - not in its philosophy and not in her idea (however it can be specifically, concretely implemented) of removal of the best men away from the power-lusters and their enablers. As collapse continues - because it *will* get much worse - that will become ever more obvious.

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Yesterday was a dark day...

You're absolutely right. It makes me sick to think about, but what we need to do is clear. We need to make our voices heard leading into the 2010 (and, later, the 2012) election. We need to get enough rights respecting candidates into the Congress that we can repeal this bill before its full effects are borne and in spite of the President's veto power.

I've thought of a few good ways of doing so. One is via youtube. This will be easiest to pull off against Obama, since his campaign videos are available anywhere, but it should consist of nothing more than him making a promise juxtaposed with news reports showing it was not fulfilled/later contrary statements from after he was elected. The goal here is to not allow the American people to forget what happened yesterday -- we were not heard or respected in our wishes, and the Congress and President must be made to bear the consequences of the misunderstanding of who holds the power in this country. A like, compelling, dramatic, straightforward, well-put together video about each of our Representatives and Senators should also be put together. When coupling this with the anti-democratic sentiments swelling in our country, we should be able to wrest the vast majority of seats in congress away from those currently holding them -- enough to get the majority (2/3's I believe?) that we need to repeal it. Come next election, my lithmus test for candidates will be, "Will you support repealing the health bill?"

It's a dark day indeed, but we are still free to think and to speak on those thoughts -- which means, we are still free enough to rend our ever-tightening nooses.

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Yesterday was a dark day, though many people didn't think so.

Arguments in favor of the health care bill were made from emotion, not reason, and this polluted the parliamentary procedure process, as far as I could tell. And this is all because a certain percentage of the populace want to wrest a guarantee of health and long life from the government, since reality offers no such guarantees.

The government is there for our protection (protection from force), not to provide anything to anyone. Apparently we've forgotten that.

So what's next? What else will people want the government to provide for them? More free education for their children, for sure. But I'm sure they'd like alot more than that. And when will the government, one day, say: "You know, there are alot of people out there who don't like our system of freebies and handouts, and they are expressing their ideas--in writing, speech, and the visual image. These ideas are a threat to our regime--I mean, system. Therefore these ideas need to be curbed somehow--whether by having a tax on certain publications or visual media, monetary penalties for certain things said in public, or just outright prohibition on expression, in any from, of these ideas"? That is my biggest fear from all of this.

The bill is stunningly bad news, but we're not necessarily stuck with it. Let's wait a few years before we act as if it's over.

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I don't worry because there seems to be a feedback mechanism in civilized countries, forcing the balance back rightwards when things really get grim. Think of Thatcher, or Reagan. But also to a lesser degree, the reasons for which Sarkozy was elected in France - straight after a term of presidency, supposedly right wing, that saw the implementation of the 35 hour week. And Sweden, that reached the Corporatocracy stage of Schumpeter's cycle towards socialism, and then violently swung back (although not far enough, as Henrik will tell us I am sure :D) towards a society with some degree of property rights.

And the US is the place where the feedback mechanism that prevents socialism is strongest and most rapid.

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The bill is stunningly bad news, but we're not necessarily stuck with it. Let's wait a few years before we act as if it's over.

There are parts of the bill that are blatantly unconstitutional. Congress has no power to compel the purchase of any privately provided service or good. States have that power, but not the Central Government. Regulation of Interstate Commerce does not include compelling the purchase of anything including health insurance.

Bob Kolker

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The bill is stunningly bad news, but we're not necessarily stuck with it. Let's wait a few years before we act as if it's over.

There are parts of the bill that are blatantly unconstitutional. Congress has no power to compel the purchase of any privately provided service or good. States have that power, but not the Central Government. Regulation of Interstate Commerce does not include compelling the purchase of anything including health insurance.

Bob Kolker

As I understand it, almost nothing done under the ICC reflects the intent of that clause. Originally, it was meant to prevent state governments from blocking goods and service from other states. That's a looooong way down.

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The bill is stunningly bad news, but we're not necessarily stuck with it. Let's wait a few years before we act as if it's over.

There are parts of the bill that are blatantly unconstitutional. Congress has no power to compel the purchase of any privately provided service or good. States have that power, but not the Central Government. Regulation of Interstate Commerce does not include compelling the purchase of anything including health insurance.

Bob Kolker

As I understand it, almost nothing done under the ICC reflects the intent of that clause. Originally, it was meant to prevent state governments from blocking goods and service from other states. That's a looooong way down.

The Constitution only has so much power as you have politicians capable and willing of objectively interpreting. :D

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Most of the Ayn Rand fans thought it was - apparently even the ones who took the really stupid advice to vote for Obama and his minions. Apparently this is much worse than a "theocracy", who would have thought? (I am certain that rationalizations that this *is* evidence of theocracy are forthcoming.)

I am still rather angry about those so called Ayn Rand fans who not only voted for him, but basically campaigned for him. I remember arguing with them at the time of the election and no matter how much evidence was pulled up to show he was a Marxist, they for whatever reason, didn't see it.

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[...] no matter how much evidence was pulled up to show he was a Marxist, they for whatever reason, didn't see it.

Because frankly, being a Peter Keating who looks to their master for advice rather than using their own common sense and rational thought, is not actually being an Objectivist, a term that I am now reluctant to use because of the chronic mis-self-identifications of it.

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The bill is stunningly bad news, but we're not necessarily stuck with it. Let's wait a few years before we act as if it's over.

This abominable bill is not the end of the world. It deals with health insurance policies but it does not, in its present form, include a Public Option (that is to say Government Provided health insurance) nor does it put the government in charge of the dispensing of health care. In short, it is not the dreadful National Health Service, the bane of Britain. But it is a nose under the tent. It is a first step in that direction and it must be stopped definitely and soon. In its present form it is no worse than Medicare, although it has a wider application. Think of it as Medicare extended to younger people.

So the bill, per se, while undesirable is not a show stopper. What is scarier than the bill is the way Obama and his cronies in Congress forced this piece of wretchedness down the throats of the American public. Passing the Bill was mostly about Power, and little about Health. Chancellor Obama is positioning himself to become Fuhrer. We must not let him succeed.

Here is a prediction which I plucked out of thin air: If Obama and his gang have a reversal in November, beware of a "Reichstag fire", i.e. a sudden but convenient emergency which will take the heat off of the Obamoids because of the Bill. Perhaps there will be a convenient terrorist attack on the U.S. which will require the Nation to Unify behind Fearless Leader and forget minor differences such as Fascist-Care. Yes, yes. I know. I am just being a bit paranoid here.

Bob Kolker

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In short, it is not the dreadful National Health Service, the bane of Britain. But it is a nose under the tent. It is a first step in that direction and it must be stopped definitely and soon. In its present form it is no worse than Medicare, although it has a wider application. Think of it as Medicare extended to younger people.

Well first of all, the care that people under Medicare and Medicaid get benefits in large part from the revenue gained through commercial insurance. Without private insurance income, hospitals cannot afford to operate, and at best make costs. It is because of profits that hospitals can invest in new research, technology, and can recruit the best doctors, which is why healthcare is the best in America and why doctors all over the world come here to practice rather than to socialist countries. But it's the profits that this bill attacks, by eliminating the risk pool and guaranteeing coverage for everyone. That means 1) higher premiums to care for more sick patients, and 2) lower reimbursement to hospitals. Ironically the first thing that will happen is hospitals and practices will start canceling lower paying contracts to increase their reimbursement rates, which means Medicare and Medicaid patients will have a harder time finding a place to go. And with strained resources, the people without insurance showing up at the ER will not receive the quality care they do now. And don't forget that we're already in a recession with hospitals already having to stretch the value of the dollar as far as they can. At best, this "reform" will see to it that healthcare never recovers from its current slump.

And secondly, arguing that the bill is better than it could have been because it does not include a "public option" is just arguing the merits of fascism vs. communism. It's true that the healthcare industry is not nationalized under this plan, but it will suffer from the whims of any the many little dictators we can expect to be appointed in the near future. It's worse than private banking, because of the uncertainty. Heavy is the threat of government force if anyone stands in the way of "change", but no one knows what exactly is expected of anyone and that's in the government's favor. Added to this is, because healthcare is still in private hands, it's the care-givers and insurance payers who will get the blame if they fail to make this transition work. Not that I wish we had a public option in store for us; while the government would get the blame, abolishing it would mean firing thousands of government employees, something not likely to happen. So we're lucky in that respect, because we can still turn back. But make no mistake, they can still do a lot of damage this way.

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Incidentally, I should have added that because "healthcare is a right", the hospitals will not suffer long being offered bailouts of their own, and with their own strings attached. The administration doesn't need to orchestrate an emergency to justify a complete takeover. They'll achieve it by buying off anyone who can't afford to live in their new system.

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Here is a prediction which I plucked out of thin air: If Obama and his gang have a reversal in November, beware of a "Reichstag fire", i.e. a sudden but convenient emergency which will take the heat off of the Obamoids because of the Bill. Perhaps there will be a convenient terrorist attack on the U.S. which will require the Nation to Unify behind Fearless Leader and forget minor differences such as Fascist-Care. Yes, yes. I know. I am just being a bit paranoid here.

I've thought that's a real possibility myself.

There's a very important fact that many "Objectivists" don't get: a McCain, for all of his flaws - and this goes for most Republicans - does *not* hate America and Americans. Obama and his minions HATE America and Americans. They hate it passionately. I think there would be one of his trademark stupid grins if he heard that New York had been nuked, as long as he knew there wasn't a camera on him.

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76% of the public disapproves of Congress. 68% would throw them all out, if they could. That is unprecedented. NOT NEARLY THAT NUMBER OF COLONISTS HATED THE BRITISH. That Marxist ___________ in the White House has betrayed his dictatorial intentions, and continues to sink in the polls. We ARE going to WIN! Look at it this way--if the masses of eastern Europe could throw off their communist masters, SO CAN WE!

Already 10 state Attorney Generals have slapped the Messiah's face, announcing impending lawsuits over the blatant unconstitutionality--on multiple counts--of his fascist powr grab. The total of states may grow as high as 40!

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So the bill, per se, while undesirable is not a show stopper. What is scarier than the bill is the way Obama and his cronies in Congress forced this piece of wretchedness down the throats of the American public. Passing the Bill was mostly about Power, and little about Health. Chancellor Obama is positioning himself to become Fuhrer. We must not let him succeed.

Indeed.

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It would be interesting to see if the primaries and the Nov. elections could be made on the theme "Repeal Obamacare". I'd like to see candidates campaign on that theme and commit that their first act as a unified Congress would be to repeal this. If the polls are true, this could be a winning unified campaign motto.

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Here is a prediction which I plucked out of thin air: If Obama and his gang have a reversal in November, beware of a "Reichstag fire", i.e. a sudden but convenient emergency which will take the heat off of the Obamoids because of the Bill. Perhaps there will be a convenient terrorist attack on the U.S. which will require the Nation to Unify behind Fearless Leader and forget minor differences such as Fascist-Care. Yes, yes. I know. I am just being a bit paranoid here.

I've thought that's a real possibility myself.

There's a very important fact that many "Objectivists" don't get: a McCain, for all of his flaws - and this goes for most Republicans - does *not* hate America and Americans. Obama and his minions HATE America and Americans. They hate it passionately. I think there would be one of his trademark stupid grins if he heard that New York had been nuked, as long as he knew there wasn't a camera on him.

Among the many instructive (albeit painful) lessons the passage of this bill offers, one that stands out to me is what this president and his allies see as possible and legitimate to them. Specifically, there are no rules, laws, or ethics to which they see themselves as beholden. They truly operate on ends justifying means. When there are no laws, anything is possible, as both an end and a means to it. Add to this a passionate hatred for this country and I think just about anything is possible.

That being said, would something like a Rechstag fire succeed? I don't think so. They do not yet control all forms of media, cameras and recording devices are everywhere, and a LOT of people are (and have been) on high alert.

As Bill Bucko points out, the passage of this bill has not been met with a nationwide celebration. It appears that this is largely being seen for what it is, whether the average citizen understands all the deeper issues or not. As Ayn Rand insightfully noted, the American sense of life involves, in part, the sentiment, "I don't want to be pushed around."

Pushing people around is all this president and his allies knows how to do. That's how this bill got passed, and it's what the bill does. I want to believe that Americans still don't want to be pushed around, and if they are, then they will push back. There seems to be some evidence that this is the case.

However, I still lack confidence in Republicans, at least current ones, to have any intellectual and moral muscle behind whatever pushback they attempt. That means it's up to citizens. And what that means for the future of the country, I'm not yet sure.

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Here is a prediction which I plucked out of thin air: If Obama and his gang have a reversal in November, beware of a "Reichstag fire", i.e. a sudden but convenient emergency which will take the heat off of the Obamoids because of the Bill. Perhaps there will be a convenient terrorist attack on the U.S. which will require the Nation to Unify behind Fearless Leader and forget minor differences such as Fascist-Care. Yes, yes. I know. I am just being a bit paranoid here.

I've thought that's a real possibility myself.

There's a very important fact that many "Objectivists" don't get: a McCain, for all of his flaws - and this goes for most Republicans - does *not* hate America and Americans. Obama and his minions HATE America and Americans. They hate it passionately. I think there would be one of his trademark stupid grins if he heard that New York had been nuked, as long as he knew there wasn't a camera on him.

Since we are speculating about things here, what do you think about this: what if the purpose of something like a Reichstag fire is not to grab power per se, but simply to create a fire?

Passing this healthcare legislation was an alleged end goal, but it has also been reasonably argued that it is really a means to grabbing greater control over Americans' lives. In other words, the endgame of healthcare is power. But what might be the endgame of power? Is power the end in itself?

For a number of reasons, I'm coming to believe that powerlust has as part of its makeup "fight-lust" and maybe even "chaos-lust." I've known guys who quite simply liked to fight and beat up others. They would go out looking for fights. This is how I see powerlusters.

Power implies physical force, regardless of whether that force is used for good or evil. To have power is to be able to move things, make things happen, to force something. In other words, power is a means, not an end. If this is true, and men like Obama do want power, then the question becomes: the power to do or create what? Well, how about the fight itself, or the chaos that surrounds a fight? Some men like to fight and create chaos.

I'm reminded of bborg's essays on criminality, particularly the criminal's near worship of physical force. It is the coin of the criminal realm. Yes, criminals have desired ends, such as money, drugs, booze, babes, and so on. But what they seem to love or at least connect with on a deeper psychological level is the power of physical force. It's not the stolen wallet they remember, but instead the feel of their fists smashing the jaws of innocent victims.

I bring this up because I have had a recurrent and disturbing thought for a number of years that there are people in this country seriously intent on fomenting another civil war. There will be all kinds of "reasons" such people will give for the need for such a thing, but I think they are really just interested in the fight and chaos. Destruction for destruction's sake, with power as a means to it. Perhaps the Obama/Joker picture that went viral last year was true at a level much deeper than initially intended.

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It would be interesting to see if the primaries and the Nov. elections could be made on the theme "Repeal Obamacare". I'd like to see candidates campaign on that theme and commit that their first act as a unified Congress would be to repeal this. If the polls are true, this could be a winning unified campaign motto.

The first thing a Washington D.C. Grade Politician will assume as that the People will never approve of rescinding a program that "benefits" them. That is why we still have social (in)security. And these types have more than enough reason for believing this. You are hoping for a great deal more courage and integrity than is generally found in the kind of people who want to wield political power. I would like to see what you propose also, but there are only two chances that it will come about; slim and none.

Bob Kolker

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It would be interesting to see if the primaries and the Nov. elections could be made on the theme "Repeal Obamacare". I'd like to see candidates campaign on that theme and commit that their first act as a unified Congress would be to repeal this. If the polls are true, this could be a winning unified campaign motto.

Within a few seconds of Obamacare passing, I was invited to this group:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Repeal-It/373763211646?ref=ts

Repeal It

"This arrogant power grab proves that the President and his party care more about government control than the will of the American people. Americans told Washington to keep its hands off their health care in opinion polls, at public protests, and at the ballot box, but their pleas were ignored." Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC)

Don't Pee on My Leg and Tell Me It's Raining-Judge Judy

I think the effort is already under way :D

(by the way this group from what I can see, and this post, are in no way an endorsement of Sen. DeMint. I strongly disapprove of his religious extremism although enjoy his frequent outspoken defences of liberty.)

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From an email I received:

Dear Friend:

I want to personally thank you for signing the "Repeal ObamaCare Pledge" at repealitpledge.com and give you a quick update.

First, the bad news.

At 11:56 a.m. this morning, President Obama signed the health care legislation into law, turning one-sixth of our economy over to the federal government.

Congressional Democrats cheered as they watched the President sign this full-blown attack on our freedoms.

It was a painful sight to see.

Now, the good news.

Minutes after the health care takeover was signed into law, I introduced a one-page bill to repeal it.

While this Congress won't pass the "repeal it" legislation, it defines our shared goal and will help us distinguish between those politicians who get it and those who don't.

Once we replace the Democrats who voted for ObamaCare, we will repeal the bill and start over with commonsense, free-market solutions.

I'm also proud to report that over 50,000 Americans have signed the "Repeal ObamaCare Pledge" since late Sunday night. This is a remarkable achievement in such a short time.

But it's just the beginning. We plan to reach 100,000 pledges by the end of the day and keep building from there.

Please help us reach our goal by telling your friends and family to sign the pledge at repealitpledge.com. We need to get more people to do exactly what you've done and pledge to only support candidates who vow to repeal ObamaCare.

Once we reach a critical mass, we will begin working together to defeat the ObamaCare Democrats one at a time.

Thank you again for being willing to do your part to defend our liberty. Together, we will take our country back.

Sincerely,

Jim DeMint

United States Senator

Chairman, Senate Conservatives Fund

Sign these pledges, and write your congressman/senators urging them to fight this. They need to know what the American people think about this.

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Sign these pledges, and write your congressman/senators urging them to fight this. They need to know what the American people think about this.

The reason I'm not as down about this bill as others seem to be is because I think the people are vehemently against it, politicians know it, and that there's room to expect an unprecedented reaction to it (this thing was too much, too quick, ie, momentary suicide for the Left.) If we do get a noteworthy reaction - repeal, serious amendment, etc. - we may get a decade or two to make our case before another disaster hits.

Either way, I see no point in assuming the Republic is done before I see the body, as they say. Now is the time for the genuinely courageous and unaffected to push instead of allowing trace amounts of Original Sin to affect them.

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...(this thing was too much, too quick, ie, momentary suicide for the Left.)...

I was very surprised that the Leftists actually voted for this. My estimation was that they were all Pragmatists and would vote against to try and survive the next election.

What surprised me was that so many Leftists were willing to take such a "kamikaze" policy move with their political careers. Any one of them with a grain of sense must know there's a good chance their days are numbered now. I guess in a way our politicians are "principled", in that their only absolute principle is "expand government power at any cost". They probably knew that any piece of legislation, once installed, is difficult to remove; so the strategy was to get anything in that they could now, even if it's something that literally no one actually wanted or was satisfied with, and use it as a building-point further down the road.

They are the suicide bombers of politics.

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