Sum Ergo Cogitabo

Iran Needs A Rebirth Of The Islamic Golden Age

15 posts in this topic

I speak of Iran specifically because it is by far the most powerful regime committed to the destruction of Western values and were the regime to reform significantly in the right direction, the power-base of the Middle East and Islamic terrorism would swiftly fail.

One of the key problems with Iran currently is that it believes its current ideology is necessary in order stay 'true to Islam', which is the cornerstone of the Islamic world. However historically there was a period from the 8th to the 13th century known as the Islamic Golden Age, whereby the Middle East managed to harmonise Islam with (comparatively) liberal traditions.

Holy books are often riddled with contradictions. The Koran is no exception to this. Whilst there are plenty of parts to justify the kind of regime Iran has now, there are also parts which are relatively peaceful, and it these that the scholars of the Islamic Golden Age chose to follow, in much the same way as most modern Western Christians only follow the relatively liberal parts of the Bible.

I think the most rational approach one can take, besides advocating military intervention, towards Iran and the Islamic world is to encourage them to rediscover the Golden Age of Islam. This solves their problem of Islam needing to be a cornerstone of their society and is also great for the West because it means an end to terrorism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Mild" islam is an invention used to promote Islam acceptance (and pave the way for conquest) throughout Western society.

Most of recent history - pretty much since the invention of Islam - has been about Muslims vs. Christians. We have been distracted in the last century by a pretty major enemy, but I have a feeling we'll resume former hostilities fairly soon.

Any kind of apology towards Islam is kind of like the hippy patient who *knows* that praying to redirect the tree energies back into her body will cure that cancer, and therefore refuses chemo. Neither stories have a happy ending.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"Mild" islam is an invention used to promote Islam acceptance (and pave the way for conquest) throughout Western society.

Sure, I agree with that, but I don't see what that has to do with my point. My point was that there was a period in the past known as The Islamic Golden Age whereby

actual progress was being made and the society claimed that they were Muslim (I would argue that any progress made was due to secular values).

Most of recent history - pretty much since the invention of Islam - has been about Muslims vs. Christians. We have been distracted in the last century by a pretty major enemy, but I have a feeling we'll resume former hostilities fairly soon.

The IGA was a period of time whereby the Christians were very much the bad guys, and the Middle East were the (comparatively) good guys.

Any kind of apology towards Islam is kind of like the hippy patient who *knows* that praying to redirect the tree energies back into her body will cure that cancer, and therefore refuses chemo. Neither stories have a happy ending.

I'm not advocating any kind of apology to Islam. I'm merely claiming that as an intermediate step towards freedom, it might be prudential to convince the Iranian populous to return to the values of the IGA. I still think war is the most rational option, but if the loss of the lives of Western soldiers can be prevented by causing internal change within Iran, then surely this can only be good?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the most rational approach one can take, besides advocating military intervention, towards Iran and the Islamic world is to encourage them to rediscover the Golden Age of Islam. This solves their problem of Islam needing to be a cornerstone of their society and is also great for the West because it means an end to terrorism.

One can only advise a rational approach to an essentially rational person or culture of which Iranians are not. The best approach is to let them sit in their own squalor unless they take arms against us, then our rational approach should be to annihilate them. Diplomacy has already left the stage and at this point the quickest manner to bring it back is a total war. Iranians do not need a rebirth of religious dogma, of any sort, they need to recognize the beacon of reason and apply it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the most rational approach one can take, besides advocating military intervention, towards Iran and the Islamic world is to encourage them to rediscover the Golden Age of Islam. This solves their problem of Islam needing to be a cornerstone of their society and is also great for the West because it means an end to terrorism.

Given who and what the Iranians are today, and given the kind of government they have now, just how would we do that? What, specifically, would you suggest we do that we are not doing now?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the most rational approach one can take, besides advocating military intervention, towards Iran and the Islamic world is to encourage them to rediscover the Golden Age of Islam. This solves their problem of Islam needing to be a cornerstone of their society and is also great for the West because it means an end to terrorism.

Given who and what the Iranians are today, and given the kind of government they have now, just how would we do that? What, specifically, would you suggest we do that we are not doing now?

In addition to giving the occupied Islamic countries a model democratic and free-enterprise Constitution such that MacArthur did for Japan, the USA should also create profit-making privately owned purpose-chartered major universities and community colleges throughtout the lands that the USA has occupied. These would be devoted to the teaching of individual rights, property rights, Anglo-American legal priciples, Western liberty, English language, a secular philosophy of facts and reason, the protection of the individual, justice, and free enterprise. The arts, vocations, medicine and the sciences could also be taught, and men, women and children would be invited to attend classes. Given buildings, teachers from everywhere would come to teach. These colleges would enable a stand-alone society that would function to the benefit of all individuals. Branches throughout the Islamic world and Western world would be established, and major private universities would help the USA in organizing the many private institutions.

Otherwise, once the USA removes its weapons and military, the Islamic goverments will instantly prevail. The USA will have lost the wars. The legacy of the USA will more likely be the gifting of tanks, guns, rockets, mortars, tgechnology, equipment, and vehicles upon the respective Islamic countries.

I say give them universities rather than military gear.

Inventor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I say give them universities rather than military gear.

Now? Or should we win the war first?

Start now.

The individual rights-, democracy-, and free enterprise-based Constitutions could be put together in a matter of weeks given USA leadership, and local lawyers could plan the adoption of the laws. Perhaps a benefactor could sponsor ARI or ARC to write a proposed model document, or a competition and prize at each participating Western country and college could attract competing proposals. How to place the document in the local country - I don't know yet. Perhaps by USA edict, MacArthur style.

The schools, however, would require planning, organization, curriculi, courses written, PR to attract teachers, business plans, zoning, construction, architecture competitions, contracts signed, and everything else.

Courses in fashion design, auto styling, algae biodiesel oil production, cooking, child care, and wealth management science would be possible.

Get phase one in place and the phase one basic buildings built within six months.

The schools would be locally run according to their charters, and they would adapt to the people and the world.

There needs to be a reason to win the war. Especially for the Americans and Westerners. Our legacy must be liberty, individual rights, democracy, and free enterprise.

Inventor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Otherwise, once the USA removes its weapons and military, the Islamic goverments will instantly prevail.

Not if the Islamic governments are first heated to 25000 degrees C. Theirs is the culture of death. Let them taste it on every square inch of their lands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I say give them universities rather than military gear.

Now? Or should we win the war first?

Start now.

The individual rights-, democracy-, and free enterprise-based Constitutions could be put together in a matter of weeks given USA leadership, and local lawyers could plan the adoption of the laws. Perhaps a benefactor could sponsor ARI or ARC to write a proposed model document, or a competition and prize at each participating Western country and college could attract competing proposals. How to place the document in the local country - I don't know yet. Perhaps by USA edict, MacArthur style.

The schools, however, would require planning, organization, curriculi, courses written, PR to attract teachers, business plans, zoning, construction, architecture competitions, contracts signed, and everything else.

Courses in fashion design, auto styling, algae biodiesel oil production, cooking, child care, and wealth management science would be possible.

Get phase one in place and the phase one basic buildings built within six months.

The schools would be locally run according to their charters, and they would adapt to the people and the world.

There needs to be a reason to win the war. Especially for the Americans and Westerners. Our legacy must be liberty, individual rights, democracy, and free enterprise.

Even if you put a constitution in place there would be no guarantee that it would do any good without people with the intellect to understand it and apply it properly. So, please show in history where a country or any group of people that were fighting a war, of any sort, and were not publicly made to surrender their moral code has made the adaptations to their group/culture that you recommend. Was it done in Korea, Vietnam, Germany of WWI, (just to name a few)? I do not think so. Until the barbarians are willing to admit (surrender) that their moral code is wrong and discard it, it would be a waste of time to do the rest of what you mention.

Slightly different subject, when one is at war their primary goal is not to leave a legacy, but to defend individual rights. If after the war the winner thinks it in their best interest to build up their previous enemy then they may choose to build a culture built off of individual rights which requires a constitutional republic not a democracy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the most rational approach one can take, besides advocating military intervention, towards Iran and the Islamic world is to encourage them to rediscover the Golden Age of Islam. This solves their problem of Islam needing to be a cornerstone of their society and is also great for the West because it means an end to terrorism.

Given who and what the Iranians are today, and given the kind of government they have now, just how would we do that? What, specifically, would you suggest we do that we are not doing now?

In addition to giving the occupied Islamic countries a model democratic and free-enterprise Constitution such that MacArthur did for Japan, the USA should also create profit-making privately owned purpose-chartered major universities and community colleges throughtout the lands that the USA has occupied. These would be devoted to the teaching of individual rights, property rights, Anglo-American legal priciples, Western liberty, English language, a secular philosophy of facts and reason, the protection of the individual, justice, and free enterprise. The arts, vocations, medicine and the sciences could also be taught, and men, women and children would be invited to attend classes. Given buildings, teachers from everywhere would come to teach. These colleges would enable a stand-alone society that would function to the benefit of all individuals. Branches throughout the Islamic world and Western world would be established, and major private universities would help the USA in organizing the many private institutions.

Otherwise, once the USA removes its weapons and military, the Islamic goverments will instantly prevail. The USA will have lost the wars. The legacy of the USA will more likely be the gifting of tanks, guns, rockets, mortars, tgechnology, equipment, and vehicles upon the respective Islamic countries.

I say give them universities rather than military gear.

Inventor

You say that if the buildings are built, the teachers will come? Where will they come from exactly, considering that we don't even have enough good teachers for our own countries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You say that if the buildings are built, the teachers will come? Where will they come from exactly, considering that we don't even have enough good teachers for our own countries.

Jim Rogers reports that in Africa, he saw many beautiful ruins of beautiful universities and schools built by aid organisations, completely empty and not maintained. 10 years was enough to render one such building unusable.

In India, I saw schools in slums on the ground outside. Private schools, about 15 USD a month fee and your kid learnt a lot more than in the state "schools" (at least at that level).

Indeed, it is not the assets but the people that matter. Their attitude and whether they value knowledge. Indians value knowledge enough to send kids to a 15 USD/month school when their monthly salary is barely above 40 USD. I don't think that is as true of the Islamic world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Indeed, it is not the assets but the people that matter. Their attitude and whether they value knowledge.

Yes, and if they did, perhaps they'd already have built their own schools and hospitals.

Going on some kind of welfare crusade in the Middle-East is assuming that the West is as good as it is because of random chance, and that it now falls upon us to compensate the less fortunate, who did not receive this "gift". Why would these people even need help if they're receptive to it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You say that if the buildings are built, the teachers will come? Where will they come from exactly, considering that we don't even have enough good teachers for our own countries.

European and American teachers and missionaries travelled to virtually every country and colony throughout the world prior to WW2. There are many people who are qualified in English and the English language-based sciences who would apply. Many Americans of that travelling inclination joined the Peace Corps, and Western corporations may sponsor others. Many teachers would be drawn from the local citizens. Business organizers would teach, and their companies would offer courses in subjects that related to their companies' businesses, for example, courses in guitar amp and keyboard electronics, local languages, local archeology and conservation, railroad and bridge construction, concrete road work, utilities engineering and construction, hobbies, health care vocations, sign design and making, family planning, child care, early schooling, publishing, and whatever else.

Not enough teachers in the USA? I say that if you dispensed with the Progressive trained teachers, and sold the continually operating public schools to private concerns, and had voluntary attendance, that there would still be a huge surplus of teachers in the USA. The Progessives have ruined life for many young students, and they have received their buildings and monies, with which they have mostly failed. Huge numbers of persons, e.g., industry-trained professionals and seniors, and parents, would be able to work part time. What America needs to do is to permit the labor unions to function as free-enterprise concerns, and to allow them to help organize the new wave of private schools. Labor unions are agents that represent workers in voluntary employment negotiations, and they are not anti-thetical to the free-enterprise systrem. They should be allowed to earn a bigger stake in the outcome of privatization and individual negotiations, and they may even set up corporations that franchise schools nationwide. let the labor unions be free to organize corporations.

If you were a school owner what would you do to create more efficient educational methods and practices than the Progressives have done? I read a stat that ninety percent of children born in New York City are born to high school age mothers. That cannot be considered a triumph of Progressivism. Progressivism and its cousin, government ownership and operation of the means of education, has been a scurge upon most cities all except for a small number of private Montessori schools and the like. Progressivism is a failure.

One day of classes per week, with student work well done, is superior to full time Progressive social adaptation classes in NYC public schools.

Let free enterprise work, and let private concerns, teachers, business corporations, and individuals everywhere organize as they will and to freely determine the types of educations needed or that will sell to parents, teachers, and students. That will work in the USA-occupied countries as well as in America.

Start teaching the citizens of USA occupied countries the English language that is the key to the knowledge generated in Western civilization. My friend who is from India says that his education has included Hindi and English in addition to his native local language. English will sell well in Iraq.

How to bring courses on DVDs is another matter. At my local Barnes and Noble bookstore, of the language programs that are available on DVDs, Italian is by far the most popular. I'll bet that family planning and child care, medicine, engineering, and telephone/computer cable and equipment maintenance courses would also sell well in DVD format. Paper books may be passe. Computer CAD cartooning and CAD game design may be in vogue in Iraq, after all that's what they teach at NJ's Rutgers U. instead of invention and engineering CAD courses. Can a smaller number of teachers be more efficient by means of the use of DVDs?

Inventor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You say that if the buildings are built, the teachers will come? Where will they come from exactly, considering that we don't even have enough good teachers for our own countries.

European and American teachers and missionaries travelled to virtually every country and colony throughout the world prior to WW2. There are many people who are qualified in English and the English language-based sciences who would apply. Many Americans of that travelling inclination joined the Peace Corps, and Western corporations may sponsor others. Many teachers would be drawn from the local citizens. Business organizers would teach, and their companies would offer courses in subjects that related to their companies' businesses, for example, courses in guitar amp and keyboard electronics, local languages, local archeology and conservation, railroad and bridge construction, concrete road work, utilities engineering and construction, hobbies, health care vocations, sign design and making, family planning, child care, early schooling, publishing, and whatever else....

As I already mentioned none of the items that you bring up will do any good with out people that understand individual rights and are willing to outlaw force. Are you willing to take your life into harms way to prove whether your ideas can work? I will be waiting for your update when you accomplish your goals, but I am not holding my breath.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites