Dr. Peikoff on sex change surgery

[L-C 0]

One of the questions Dr. Peikoff answered in this week's podcasts is "Is it proper for a doctor to perform a sex change operation for a patient?"

It's currently accessible on the frontpage here: http://www.peikoff.com/podcasts/ (length 2:41)

I'm no expert on the biology of sexual identity, but isn't it said that people who don't feel at home with the sex they are had something go wrong during the fetal stage, and that their brains really are wired more like that of the opposite sex?

He compares the desire to change sex with what I believe is commonly known as "Body Integrity Identity Disorder". I don't know if that condition is influenced by faulty wiring, but the effects of amputating a healthy body part is clearly objectively bad.

Now, I've never felt an urge to change sex, but if waking up as the opposite is tantamount to what these people experience, well...

Of course, if it is based on poor philosophy thinking then I'm inclined to agree with Peikoff.

[RayK 0]

Discussions on similar topics have been discussed and can probably be found by using the search engine and typing in homosexual and genetic makeup or something similar. I have played a large part in most of those discussions and at this time do not care to revisit the same subject as I am quite certain that my neurological, biological, chemical and genetic research has led me to conclusions that most do not agree with.

[Carlos 0]

One of the questions Dr. Peikoff answered in this week's podcasts is "Is it proper for a doctor to perform a sex change operation for a patient?"

It's currently accessible on the frontpage here: http://www.peikoff.com/podcasts/ (length 2:41)

I'm no expert on the biology of sexual identity, but isn't it said that people who don't feel at home with the sex they are had something go wrong during the fetal stage, and that their brains really are wired more like that of the opposite sex?

He compares the desire to change sex with what I believe is commonly known as "Body Integrity Identity Disorder". I don't know if that condition is influenced by faulty wiring, but the effects of amputating a healthy body part is clearly objectively bad.

Now, I've never felt an urge to change sex, but if waking up as the opposite is tantamount to what these people experience, well...

Of course, if it is based on poor philosophy thinking then I'm inclined to agree with Peikoff.

There is no answer to "Is it proper to _______" without first providing the relevant context, and it's never good to be thinking about life that way.

Morality isn't a Kantian Categorical Imperative, where, for example, telling a lie is always immoral, even if the question is "where is your daughter right now" and the person asking it is a murderer. Morality isn't something derived from vacuum that is intrinsic to certain actions regardless of context. You don't deduce "Is ____ moral?" without a relevant context.

On the subject of your question, obviously some people are born with malformations that require surgery to correct, whether it is a cleft lip or some other deformity. Some individuals, for whatever reason, are born with malformed genitals and related reproductive anatomy that aren't clearly male or female. In these bizarre and unfortunate situations some kind of corrective surgery is obviously completely moral, as you are trying to restore some semblance of a healthy human being.

Other cases, such as the stereotypical men who claim--despite medically having a healthy male gender-- in later life that they were "a woman born in a man's body" probably are suffering from some psychological condition, and getting a sex change would be a self-destructive action (like suicide) motivated by the problem.

[PhilO 0]

One of the questions Dr. Peikoff answered in this week's podcasts is "Is it proper for a doctor to perform a sex change operation for a patient?"

I have a serious meta-question for you. What value do you derive from listening to Dr. Peikoff's podcasts on an endless array of subjects?

[Carlos 0]

One of the questions Dr. Peikoff answered in this week's podcasts is "Is it proper for a doctor to perform a sex change operation for a patient?"

I have a serious meta-question for you. What value do you derive from listening to Dr. Peikoff's podcasts on an endless array of subjects?

His analysis in OPAR and in other works could be top-notch.

However his recent habits of "deducing" conclusions (mainly about politics) from philosophy with no regard to reality, facts, or context does throw into suspicion any advice he would offer in these podcasts (and I personally don't bother to listen to any of his podcasts...). I would hope in answering this question he would at least address the importance of the context surrounding the event, and that there can be good and bad reasons for wanting it done.

[JeffT 0]

Peikoff said something near the end of his answer, that, in my opinion, dwarfed the rest of his response. He said:

"... the doctors who perform those operations, in my opinion, are corrupt, without qualification. I put them in the same category as the doctors in the Nazi concentration camps who took out perfectly healthy organs simply as an exercise in their skill, completely independent of the validity or the value or the morality of what they were doing."

So, according to Dr. Peikoff, a doctor who performs an operation on a patient who has consented, and has planned for it for a long time--even if the patient is acting irrationally--is morally no different than (or at least, in the "same category" as) a cold-blooded Nazi torturer against an innocent prisoner.

This is not the Peikoff I knew as the author of OPAR.

[Carlos 0]

Peikoff said something near the end of his answer, that, in my opinion, dwarfed the rest of his response. He said:

"... the doctors who perform those operations, in my opinion, are corrupt, without qualification. I put them in the same category as the doctors in the Nazi concentration camps who took out perfectly healthy organs simply as an exercise in their skill, completely independent of the validity or the value or the morality of what they were doing."

So, according to Dr. Peikoff, a doctor who performs an operation on a patient who has consented, and has planned for it for a long time--even if the patient is acting irrationally--is morally no different than (or at least, in the "same category" as) a cold-blooded Nazi torturer against an innocent prisoner.

This is not the Peikoff I knew as the author of OPAR.

If he was that polemic it is disappointing.

The doctors who grow rich from performing, for example, bizarre plastic surgeries on mentally deranged hollywood stars can't be regarded as completely innocent though. The horrific plastic surgeries of Heidi Montag or Michael Jackson could not be performed by a doctor who genuinely cared for the well being of his patients. There is no justification to subordinating their superb surgical skill to any random neurotic whim of financially loaded celebrities.

[JeffT 0]

The doctors who grow rich from performing, for example, bizarre plastic surgeries on mentally deranged hollywood stars can't be regarded as completely innocent though. The horrific plastic surgeries of Heidi Montag or Michael Jackson could not be performed by a doctor who genuinely cared for the well being of his patients. There is no justification to subordinating their superb surgical skill to any random neurotic whim of financially loaded celebrities.

I think you are right. Such operations do reflect negatively on the doctors (and this may be an understatement). I don't believe that a doctor should simply apply their skills "no questions asked".

But it's not remotely morally the same as the described Nazi doctors who "operate" on (i.e. torture) innocent victims.

[Carlos 0]

But it's not remotely morally the same as the described Nazi doctors who "operate" on (i.e. torture) innocent victims.

I agree. The NAZI "doctors" performed horrific medical experiments, such as killing people in vacuum chambers or amputating organs with almost no anesthesia. I don't know how a comparison could be sensibly made...

[PhilO 0]

It would be interesting to look for surveys of sex changed individuals to see if they were happier (from some significant period of time after surgery) afterwards than before. If so, that would certainly be an indication that it was not some meaningless, arbitrary, Nazi-like procedure. But then why look at facts when you've seen the Form of the Good and can deduce all of reality at will?

[Carlos 0]

It would be interesting to look for surveys of sex changed individuals to see if they were happier (from some significant period of time after surgery) afterwards than before.

In most of the cases I've heard of, the individuals are so obviously psychologically imbalanced that an objective survey of their "happiness" would probably be impossible or not even valid.

Unfortunately these cases of deranged individuals butchering their sexual organs are usually celebrated as "diversity" in "lifestyle", and people are praised for having the "courage" to "express themself".

This idea seems to be rampant in modern psychology, that any random sexual whim or fantasy a person expresses is treated as intrinsically good, as if the very idea that their disturbing fantasy could be irrational and a result of psychological problems is treated as some kind of fascistic "censoring" of their "true self". Never mind what "self" is supposed to mean outside of any objective self-appraisal or rational hierarchy of values.

[PhilO 0]

In most of the cases I've heard of, the individuals are so obviously psychologically imbalanced that an objective survey of their "happiness" would probably be impossible or not even valid.

Do you consider it an objective assessment of these cases go to by "what you've heard of" rather than an actual study of the facts?

People "hear" a lot of things. I've seen people rant on about the "inherent" imbalance and abnormality of homosexuals in the presence of psychologically healthy homosexuals who stay quiet.

[L-C 0]

I should've clarified that it is the context I'm interested in. I was wondering what Peikoff knows that enables him to make this judgement, since I don't know whether transsexuals have some form of biological brain confusion, which I understand is pretty much what they claim. Just like with homosexuality, the moral issue depends on whether choice is involved. Dr. Peikoff made his point with no hesitation (that I could detect), so perhaps there's some info I've missed?

PhilO: I don't listen to endless amounts of podcasts. Often he brings an interesting perspective to issues I want clarified.

[PhilO 0]

Dr. Peikoff made his point with no hesitation (that I could detect), so perhaps there's some info I've missed?

At one time he stated that his knowledge of current news was limited to reading the first page of the New York Times, so I would suggest not assuming a great deal of factual information possessed on his part regarding the issue.

PhilO: I don't listen to endless amounts of podcasts. Often he brings an interesting perspective to issues I want clarified.

Ok. I was curious since I have observed a number of people listening a large number of his podcasts, which has led to some questions in my mind about their purpose and utility, but I don't want to make this thread about that.

[Arnold 0]

Dr. Peikoff made his point with no hesitation (that I could detect), so perhaps there's some info I've missed?

At one time he stated that his knowledge of current news was limited to reading the first page of the New York Times, so I would suggest not assuming a great deal of factual information possessed on his part regarding the issue.

PhilO: I don't listen to endless amounts of podcasts. Often he brings an interesting perspective to issues I want clarified.

Ok. I was curious since I have observed a number of people listening a large number of his podcasts, which has led to some questions in my mind about their purpose and utility, but I don't want to make this thread about that.

If the individual is sane, and wants to have things done to his body, that should be the end of it. It's his choice, and I for one can't evaluate the benefits that the patient and doctor come to see.

[Carlos 0]

In most of the cases I've heard of, the individuals are so obviously psychologically imbalanced that an objective survey of their "happiness" would probably be impossible or not even valid.

Do you consider it an objective assessment of these cases go to by "what you've heard of" rather than an actual study of the facts?

People "hear" a lot of things. I've seen people rant on about the "inherent" imbalance and abnormality of homosexuals in the presence of psychologically healthy homosexuals who stay quiet.

What I'm referring to are the cases where an individual that is medically a healthy male claims to be a "woman trapped in a man's body", and gets medical procedures done to reverse their sex. I think we are all aware that this happens, and that there isn't a rational justification for it.

This has no relevance to homosexuals who act rationally with respect to the nature of who they are and are attracted to others of the same sex. In the case of sex-changes, with people who have perfectly healthy genders and related sexual anatomy, what you have are individuals trying to erase or re-write their identity. There's no justification for that, just as there's no justification for Michael Jackson to give himself caucasian facial features or Heidi Montag to double the size of her breasts through bizarre surgeries.

[PhilO 0]

What I'm referring to are the cases where an individual that is medically a healthy male claims to be a "woman trapped in a man's body", and gets medical procedures done to reverse their sex. I think we are all aware that this happens, and that there isn't a rational justification for it.

You should speak for yourself. I am not certain that a rational justification for it is lacking in everyone who undergoes that procedure. Certainly in some, perhaps most, the people are nuts. But given hormonal effects on brain development during fetal growth, I gather that it is possible for someone who has male characteristics to have developed a female-like brain (and there are differences) in some circumstances. In any case, a lot is still unknown about the brain, particularly the connection between brain hardware and the nature of consciousness, so introspective self-reporting is still the only real way we can gain information about somebody's consciousness. And clearly some of those wanting to undergo that surgery really feel that they are "a woman trapped in a man's body". So I go back to the question: are there any studies which show that they are happier after such surgery? I don't know and I am not interested enough to research it, but getting more facts is a pretty good way to avoid being rationalistic.

[Carlos 0]

What I'm referring to are the cases where an individual that is medically a healthy male claims to be a "woman trapped in a man's body", and gets medical procedures done to reverse their sex. I think we are all aware that this happens, and that there isn't a rational justification for it.

You should speak for yourself. I am not certain that a rational justification for it is lacking in everyone who undergoes that procedure. Certainly in some, perhaps most, the people are nuts. But given hormonal effects on brain development during fetal growth, I gather that it is possible for someone who has male characteristics to have developed a female-like brain (and there are differences) in some circumstances.

Which is why I said "an individual that is medically a healthy male", i.e., physiologically (hormonally, physically, etc) they are male, but psychologically they are confused. In that case the person is acting irrationally by having a sex change, as the real problem is psychological, not physical.

In any case, a lot is still unknown about the brain, particularly the connection between brain hardware and the nature of consciousness, so introspective self-reporting is still the only real way we can gain information about somebody's consciousness. And clearly some of those wanting to undergo that surgery really feel that they are "a woman trapped in a man's body". So I go back to the question: are there any studies which show that they are happier after such surgery? I don't know and I am not interested enough to research it, but getting more facts is a pretty good way to avoid being rationalistic.

And some schizophrenic people really believe and feel that their neighbors are aliens out to get them, or that satan is in control of their hand so they need to cut off their hand to prevent committing a crime. Their actions are rationally justified in their minds, but that doesn't mean the actions are actually rational or healthy. They need psychological help, not surgery.

[rtg24 0]

My attitude is simple: act free so long as you do not infringe my rights. They do not infringe my rights. I don't care and will not expand valuable time and brain effort to figure out the motivation of people whose actions have absolutely no impact whatsoever on my life.

[jasonlockwood 0]

I think at minimum Dr. Peikoff would need to talk to a number of these people before pronouncing judgement on the appropriateness of the surgery. That wouldn't make him an expert - far from it - but it would at least ground things in reality somewhat.

I have met a number of transsexuals over the years, some who have had cosmetic surgery to appear more like women (or men), some who were in the process of changing completely into the opposite sex. I wouldn't say any of them were friends of mine per se, but I did know them on a casual basis and I would see them out in clubs and bars. With one exception, I found them all to be rather disturbed people, some more so than others. One in particular I found a sad case: a middle-aged man nearing 60 years old who 'figured out' he was really a woman. Now this person was pleasant enough to talk to, but clearly suffered from some real psychological problems. He did eventually make the complete change and appeared 'happy', but I had my doubts about that. Happy people don't drink themselves blind on a regular basis, as 'she' continued to do after the surgery.

I agree that one cannot equate homosexuals with those men and women claiming to be born the wrong sex. The vast majority of gay men and women I've known, and in particular the younger ones, have been essentially reasonable people. I'm no expert on sexuality - other than my own - but most of the gays I've known eventually come to terms with their sexual identities and live fulfilling, productive lives, as I have.

My interest in this matter is pretty minimal, but because I've had more exposure to transsexuals, I thought I could weigh in on the topic.

[bborg 0]

Happy people don't drink themselves blind on a regular basis, as 'she' continued to do after the surgery.

I've sometimes wondered about this issue, and whether a person could really ever consider themselves female after having these surgeries and hormone treatments performed. Physically men who undergo them still retain masculine features and have an altered male physiology, not a female body. They are also not treated as women but as freaks by most people, and lose the option of pursuing any normal romantic relationships. Whatever they may believe about their real gender, they can never be it. You often hear of surgery as the final step in the process of a man becoming a woman, but this is a fiction it seems like they would have to evade on a daily basis in order to function.

[jasonlockwood 0]

I've sometimes wondered about this issue, and whether a person could really ever consider themselves female after having these surgeries and hormone treatments performed. Physically men who undergo them still retain masculine features and have an altered male physiology, not a female body. They are also not treated as women but as freaks by most people, and lose the option of pursuing any normal romantic relationships. Whatever they may believe about their real gender, they can never be it. You often hear of surgery as the final step in the process of a man becoming a woman, but this is a fiction it seems like they would have to evade on a daily basis in order to function.

This is exactly what I've thought, too. It is tough for me to believe that someone with little understanding of sexuality and psychology can conclude he's living in the body of a woman or vice versa. What, other than feelings, are they going on?

[Paul's Here 0]

Here's some facts to consider: SRS.

[Carlos 0]

Might want to warn people that this is NSFW

Here's some facts to consider: SRS.

[Paul's Here 0]

Might want to warn people that this is NSFW

Here's some facts to consider: SRS.

Not sure what that means, but be forewarned.