Poetry and Rap

[bignosedcopperking 0]

I actually do dream of a day when I will walk the streets and be able to catch a street poet at every corner, "singing" his poems at every corner. This is why I like the genre of rap. Because of the potential it suggests. I like Eminem's talent, for example, though not his world view, though he is better in values than the gangster rappers. What I can't help not evade is a personal talent, exhibited in the spontaneous-on-the-spot creations, that these rappers show. It is a medium to spread the right message to the populace; but more, it is a medium by which to bring more joy to a poet's house, and our city streets.

Poetry should be spoken aloud. Rap does that. A better rapper, with better values and a more musical ear, can do this better. Obviously more of these types of artists with the right values and the appropriate talent are needed. For example, the fact that our value system challenges the majority of peoples' values suggests that there is ample material from which to gather inspiration.

I just today discovered this "rapper". He's university eductated. My local free paper (www.dose.ca) recently had a write up on him. I looked him up and was impressed with what I read. This is the type of person I was thinking about. But you will find audio samples on his web site and I can't speak for them. I can't because currently my audio is not working on my computer, that fills me with a rage that I have to suppress for the time being. So I hope Baba in audio lives up to his verses. He may not share the exact same values, from what I've read, but they are good enough to notice his literary talent.

http://www.babasword.com/writing/poetry/renaissance.html

I thought that making this topic will inspire people of our values to write and recite poetry. Also to take an interest in current rap, and look into it, to see what can be done to help get the right message across.

Big Nose.

[bignosedcopperking 0]

One of the local free daily papers (magazines), has a discussion forum. The author of the following views had some interesting thoughts on the nature of free-style rap in relation to poetry and even psycho-epistemology.

http://toronto.dose.ca/webx?7@@.eeaac24/3

Maybe, some of you will register and help change my city and my country ... when you have time ... and probably just want to rant and attack. They even have a blog section.

[Carlos 0]

*reads lyrics*

I can honestly say I have never encountered a rapper that mentioned:

Homer, Virgil, the Trojan War, and Chaucer in one verse

It's a shame your audio isn't working, his delivery is pretty impressive, especially on Scientist.

I'm not sure I would really like it though: he almost sounds like an intellectually pretentious Eminem.

I think I agree with you that the concept of rap or hip-hop could be awesome beyond words. The only problem is that the music-scene needs a massive enema (there is no other better word for it) to get rid of the anti-value filth that is modern rap and hip-hop music.

That's why the only hip-hop I can indefinitely listen to are The Beastie Boys and Eric B. & Rakim: B. Boys are at least silly enough to be incapable of malevolence, and Eric B. & Rakim from my experience keep their hip-hop away from gangster-rap elements and usually stick to shameless self-aggrandizing.

[Carlos 0]

grammar mistake, yargh

hip-hop is singular, not plural.

*That's why the only hip-hop I can indefinitely listen to IS The Beastie Boys...*

[Mercury 0]

grammar mistake, yargh

hip-hop is singular, not plural.

*That's why the only hip-hop I can indefinitely listen to IS The Beastie Boys...*

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If you like "intellectual" rap, seek out old records by Jeru The Damaja, Blahzay Blahzay, GangStarr, and The Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy.

There was a time when Eminem wouldn't have stood out too sharply in hip-hop. I used to be a huge hip-hop fan, long ago.

[ChristopherSchlegel 0]

Poetry should be spoken aloud.  Rap does that.

This is a very good point. Notice, however, that rap is in fact a type (a sub-genre) of poetry. On this thread on OO.net I discussed rap in detail.

Most importantly I said:

Rap qua rap is not music...Rapping does not contain melodic information. Therefore it cannot contain harmonic information. It only contains linguistic & rhythmic information. Therefore rapping per se is not music.

A better rapper, with better values and a more musical ear...

And therefore the problem I see here is that a rapper with a more musical ear is in danger of becoming a singer. Or musician, lyricist, vocalist, etc.

Obviously this business of "free-style-improv-rapping" requires skill, someone could use rational premises for the contents of their raps, others might be influenced by it to understand & appreciate those rational premises to greater degree. But it's very concrete bound in some ways. I understand an artist has to "build up chops" in order to have a backlog of material readily available for use when improving. However, I am not convinced that the fundamental nature of hip-hop & rapping is expandable into anything capable of expressing a wide enough range of concepts & emotions. At a certain point either the rapper might need to use actual musical elements (i.e. melody & harmony) or else be free of the confines of established rhythmic aspects of rap (& therefore more like the wider art of poetry).

Ironically, I have often noticed that hip-hop & rap artists love to claim they are so concerned with rhythm. Obviously, since it is the only musical element in their art they have to focus on it; they have no melodies or harmonic structures to discuss. However, many I have heard are hopelessly banal in their rhythmic choices as well. Once a black musician tried to argue with me about how "his people" had a more instinctive sense of rhythm than "my people". After shredding his irrational racist premise, I asked him, "If that were actually true, then why are so many black hip-hop & rap artists so mindlessly banal with their rhythmic structures?" Most of the songs are going BOOM-BOOM-BOOM-BOOM on every single downbeat! Are they afraid they will lose the downbeat or forget where is it if they don't emphasis EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM?

In any event, there is more rhythmic variation in four measures of Brahms than in the last 20 years of rapping.

To put a positive spin on it, there is a great deal of opportunity in the genre of rap for creativity.

I thought that making this topic will inspire people of our values to write and recite poetry.  Also to take an interest in current rap, and look into it, to see what can be done to help get the right message across.

Something like this might work if it was an organic thing. For example, if an artist with Objectivist values (or at least explicitly rational premises) had a passion to work in this genre. But otherwise you might just be "forcing the issue" & would wind up with a mediocre result that sounded stilted.

To certain extent this reminds me of how modern Christians love to take any currently popular genre of music & graft on "their values". So the music sounds like some horrible grunge crap, but instead of lyrics that express hopeless navel-gazing angst, "I hate myself & I want to die", we get, "Jesus loves you, this I know..."

I personally think there is more freedom & possibility to be had in the general form of poetry (& music) rather than the narrow confines of hip-hop & rap (at least as it currently exists & of which I am aware).

[Guest Dan Edge]

Hello All,

Several years ago, I was heavily involved in "Slam" or performance poetry. It's similar to rap, but usually without music, and since it's always done live one's physical performance is very important. There's lots of crowd participation, similar to the atmosphere in an old-timey black baptist church. I loved it!

The biggest drawback to the Slam community is the over-abundance of "Black Power" poetry, which really gets on my nerves. Kill The White Man! But most of that crap is just for show. I was the only white guy in one Slam group for years and everyone welcomed me. Much of my poetry is explicit, so I won't post any of it here. I still have most of them memorized, though, so if you ever run into me at an Objectivist function, I will perform on request Besides it's much better with the physical performance.

--Dan Edge

[Bill Bucko 0]

Speaking as one who grew up before it became taken for granted that pop music must employ what Ayn Rand called "the deadening drumbeat of the jungle,"

Rap artist is to real artist as cow pie is to real pie.

[B. Royce 0]

Speaking as one who grew up before it became taken for granted that pop music must employ what Ayn Rand called "the deadening drumbeat of the jungle,"

Rap artist is to real artist as cow pie is to real pie.

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Well said, Bill; succinct! I originally wasn't going to reply to this thread, "rap" being a subject of such undiluted boredom. But your "pies" got me thinking.

From what I can tell, "rap" is the uttering of speech without giving prominence to the individual and distinguishing qualities of the sounds of words, or to the distinguishing meaning of ideas. Like communism in politics, which does not acknowledge (and thus, does not distinguish) individuals, so "rap" does not acknowledge the unique qualities of words and ideas, and this prohibits both the rapper and his listener from evaluating the meaning of his speech, which in turn leads to no variance in emotional expression or emotional response (unless arbitrarily forced).

It is clear to me that anyone who wishes to write poetry or songs which are in some degree emotionally expressive, beautiful, and consciously alive, had better steer clear of the dead anti-mindedness of rap.

[Mercury 0]

I don't necessarily disagree with the comments of Messrs. Schlegel, Bucko, and Royce above. By this I mean that I am not today a champion of hip-hop. I love any music which has method and melody, and which is pleasant to the ears. And I admire clever lyrics that have symmetry.

But, I do wish that they would provide examples of rap or hip-hop that they've heard when they make these assertions. It's not enough to assume that the non-musicality of rap is self-evident.

I for one can't stand heavy metal, garage, acid, jungle, or any of that "alternative" sound, which I consider the lowest possible pretense to the term "music." Yet, that stuff doesn't get as much criticism as hip-hop does.

Even among people who find hip-hop intriguing, a significant number had already tired of the drivel being churned out as far back as 1995/6. Outgrowing teenage angst may have had something to do with it; or growing older period: age leaves one unable to keep up with the frenzy of hard partying and pounding basslines that make one's head ache. But the biggest factor, I suspect, was the decline in the quality of the lyrics.

Hip-hop, as originally conceived, is essentially bragging about one's lyrical cleverness over a funk (corrupted guitar) tune.**** As one brags, the listener is supposed to feel like he's taken into a new world: the mind of the braggart. If the braggart is clever, one admires him; otherwise, one tunes him out or shuts him up. Coupled with a truly dramatic accompaniment, it can sometimes be hypnotic.

In the early days, the beats were sometimes loud and crude but that wasn't really the point: it was all about what the braggart was saying. The secondhanded "sampling" that was being done on rap tracks was virtually unimportant since you couldn't really tell what the original song was - and you didn't care either. The bragging alluded to violence in a playful way. It wasn't supposed to be taken literally.

The tracks that entered the mainstream in those days were the raps with a melodious background. Which is a clue into the nature of the human ear: melody is (almost) intrinsically good.

But, as time went on and the secondhandness crept into hip-hop (which itself had some secondhandedness, being a street product), clever lyrics became less important and all these secondhanders turned it into a vehicle for sacrificing higher forms of art and culture, and for celebrating the thoroughly mediocre and uncultivated.

Philosophical rap (Public Enemy) gave way to "gangsta" rap (NWA), anti-establishment rap (Rage Against The Machine), and "crunk" (the vogue, which is ungodly and unlistenable).

I was listening at the very beginning, when philosophical rap seemed to fill a need for a rebellious youth and when "gangsta" rap seemed to be a playful expression of emotionalism (like a violent Tarantino movie). At that time, the lyrics were still clever and even though I disagreed, the delivery was engaging depending on whom you were listening to.

Of course, when hip-hop finally seized the mainstream, the same kind of cretins who control the biggest Hollywood budgets took over the industry. Hip-hop was sensationalized beyond belief. Any idiot is on the radio these days, but it's not limited to hip-hop: most art - high or low - today is infected with secondhandedness.

In any case, I have since moved on from hip-hop and now listen to it very sparingly. I am more into melody -- I listen to a wide variety of music and am set to launch into an Alexander Scriabin period .

****There are some tracks that weren't about bragging, preferring to tell a story (Parents Just Don't Understand) or express some emotion (I Need Love) in a clever way, but these weren't essential types.

[A.West 0]

I hate rap. I hate the idea that rap is now considered a legitimate "artistic school" by which we shall transcend our ethnic/class barriers. I hate that my seven year old neice is being taught hip-hop in ballet class, and that my daughter and I are assaulted by the sounds of children "rapping" about loving their families on Caillou, a PBS cartoon about a four-year old Canadian boy. I see no way of reconciling Rap with an uplift of reason and civilization.

[Guest Dan Edge]

Hello,

I think it's silly to argue that rap is somehow irrational or anti-mind. I agree that rap is not music, it's more like sound design or rhythmic poetry set to a beat. But that doesn't mean it is valueless. I don't own many rap albums, but I very much enjoy the ones I have; they're great for dance music!

Whether or not you like rap is an optional value judgement, nothing more. I'm reminded of one Objectivist who once argued to me that The Beatles, and rock n' roll in general, are anti-life, anti-mind, immoral, etc. Quite silly.

That said, I understand the moral outrage at someone upholding rap as the artistic equivalent of melodic music. That's like comparing a pretty design pattern with a Rembrandt.

--Dan Edge

[Mercury 0]

I hate rap. I hate the idea that rap is now considered a legitimate "artistic school" by which we shall transcend our ethnic/class barriers. I hate that my seven year old neice is being taught hip-hop in ballet class, and that my daughter and I are assaulted by the sounds of children "rapping" about loving their families on Caillou, a PBS cartoon about a four-year old Canadian boy. I see no way of reconciling Rap with an uplift of reason and civilization.

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Do you also hate Heavy Metal? If not, why?

[Carlos 0]

"Hello,

I think it's silly to argue that rap is somehow irrational or anti-mind. I agree that rap is not music, it's more like sound design or rhythmic poetry set to a beat. But that doesn't mean it is valueless. I don't own many rap albums, but I very much enjoy the ones I have; they're great for dance music!"

Excellent:

We (I assume I speak for all of us here) are not saying that rap or hip-hop is in the same ballpark as something like Tchaikovsky; that would be insulting. What we are saying is that rap and hip-hop are potentially very enjoyable things that possess music elements but are not necessarily music.

The best analogy I can think of is body-building: a body-builder has the ELEMENTS of an athlete, an artist, and more specifically, a sculptor.

But a body-builder is NOT an athlete, an artist, or a sculptor. But a body-builder (barring freakish excess of muscle) I would say is a valuer, a good person, as with the act of body-building.

[Carlos 0]

"I hate rap. I hate the idea that rap is now considered a legitimate "artistic school" by which we shall transcend our ethnic/class barriers. I hate that my seven year old neice is being taught hip-hop in ballet class, and that my daughter and I are assaulted by the sounds of children "rapping" about loving their families on Caillou, a PBS cartoon about a four-year old Canadian boy. I see no way of reconciling Rap with an uplift of reason and civilization."

I understand you may have your reasons for disliking rap or hip-hop, but this sounds more like an outburst of cynicism than a judgment.

[Guest danielshrugged]

Whether or not you like rap is an optional value judgement, nothing more.  I'm reminded of one Objectivist who once argued to me that The Beatles, and rock n' roll in general, are anti-life, anti-mind, immoral, etc.  Quite silly.

--Dan Edge

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Good points. However, to be precise you should say: whether or not you like rap is an optional value judgment--within a certain range. There might be some good reasons to like some rap music...but many reasons are bad. If someone likes rap music because he thinks it fills his need for art, then a false identification is behind his value-judgment. If someone likes rap music because he likes to hear people glorify drugs and crime, then he has a warped set of values.

[tps_fan 0]

Looking over the past 20 plus years of rap and hip-hop, I would say that those performers are primarily interested in certain aspects of style. I forget the term right now, but there's a poetic term that refers to the integrated use of wordplay, timing, and some other factors. (The word isn't "elocution"...)

It would seem that rappers have not only tried to create new terms but a new form of grammar. I have mixed feelings about this in particular and rap in general, but whatever their respective skills may be, their work should be considered in historical context.

(Now, I'm rushing through this post...switching points...)

Hey! How would rap compare to scat?! I wonder if Ella Fitzgerald were to try to perform scat without melody, then would that be rap-like?!?

As far as my personal value-judgement(s) go, (as point of references) I would add that I tend to agree with Christopher Schlegel's ideas about the limits of rap, and I agree with Dan Edge's previous post.

(Ah, I'll have to continue sometime later...)

(Good the spell check function works this time!)

[Guest Dan Edge]

Daniel,

Well said. I agree completely. Thanks for the clarification.

--Dan Edge

[ChristopherSchlegel 0]

Hey!  How would rap compare to scat?!  I wonder if Ella Fitzgerald were to try to perform scat without melody, then would that be rap-like?!?

Very good! This is precisely the point: "...without the melody". I would have to say "Yes" that would be similar to rap in at least one crucial way: the essential, musical element would be missing.

& as a huge Ella fan, I am happy you made this observation. Ella had flawless pitch, gorgeous phrasing, excellent diction & marvelous overall delivery in live & studio performance. Comparing/contrasting her scat with rap is a useful way of making the point. A rapper uses words in a rhythmic pattern, but disregards melody. Ella (or any good scat singer) disregards words, but is still musical by virtue of retaining melody (& therefore usually harmony if only implied) & rhythm.

Obviously, anyone defending rap at this point could say, "But the point of rap IS the use of specific words (or 'wordplay' as tps_fan mentioned)". However this only goes further to the point of illustrating it is not music.

[A.West 0]

Do you also hate Heavy Metal?  If not, why?

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I don't hate it as much as rap. Some of the old heavy metal actually sounds melodic and bluesey when contrasted to more modern music, e.g. Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin (which I'm not even sure counts as heavy metal with those into this kind of music). I remember tolerating a few friends' constant playing of Guns & Roses and Metallica during my late teens. It's negative, angry music, which I expect creates a negative effect on one's psyche. "Thrash metal" sounds like a physical assault on the mind.

The interesting thing about metal is that it has been fairly left out of popular culture, unlike rap. Apparently elementary schools and television shows for children do not "celebrate diversity" by encouraging children to emulate the musical tastes of mostly lower middle class white teenagers. I think rap, in a sense has benefitted from musical "affirmative action" in a way that metal has not.

Is there a rap movie equivalent of "This Is Spinal Tap"? I'd love to see one, but most likely the makers would be first denounced as intolerant racists by the media, then later actually killed by rap-related gangsters for "disrespectin" them.

[Guest Dan Edge]

Is there a rap movie equivalent of "This Is Spinal Tap"? I'd love to see one, but most likely the makers would be first denounced as intolerant racists by the media, then later actually killed by rap-related gangsters for "disrespectin" them.

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The Wayans Brothers made a movie called "Don't be a Menace to Society While You're Drinking Your Juice in the Hood." It mercilously pokes fun at rap culture and black stereotypes. This movie was really popular in the black community, though it was produced by two famous black celebrities, so I guess that makes it OK. In one scene, a well-dressed white guy known as "The Man" appears to frame two black men for a crime. That was pretty funny. I wouldn't recommend this movie though, unless you like very low-brow humor. I didn't much care for it.

--Dan Edge

[Mercury 0]

I don't hate it as much as rap. Some of the old heavy metal actually sounds melodic and bluesey when contrasted to more modern music, e.g. Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin (which I'm not even sure counts as heavy metal with those into this kind of music). I remember tolerating a few friends' constant playing of Guns & Roses and Metallica during my late teens. It's negative, angry music, which I expect creates a negative effect on one's psyche. "Thrash metal" sounds like a physical assault on the mind.

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Well, there is melodic rap: try listening to almost anything produced by Dr. Dre (who discovered Eminem), anything by Outkast, Nelly, or DJ Quick (I mention those that quickly come to mind). There was also a whole movement of jazz-infused rap that was pretty big in the early 90s.

The interesting thing about metal is that it has been fairly left out of popular culture, unlike rap. Apparently elementary schools and television shows for children do not "celebrate diversity" by encouraging children to emulate the musical tastes of mostly lower middle class white teenagers. I think rap, in a sense has benefitted from musical "affirmative action" in a way that metal has not.

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Aha! Precisely my point: rap, because of its use of concepts, has been a ready vehicle for the members of the cultural elite who want to take the West into the Dark Ages. Metal does not allow them to use one very potent weapon: the ready slur of "racist" on anyone who would oppose it.

Is there a rap movie equivalent of "This Is Spinal Tap"? I'd love to see one, but most likely the makers would be first denounced as intolerant racists by the media, then later actually killed by rap-related gangsters for "disrespectin" them.

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There is the very funny CB4, which stars Chis Rock. It even has some gangsta rappers poking fun at themselves. Even in hip-hop, some rappers poke fun at gangsta rap.

Remember, the primary purveyors of hip-hop are non-blacks. Hip-hop, in spite of its racialization over the years, is not necessarily a "black thing."

[Mercury 0]

This movie was really popular in the black community, though it was produced by two famous black celebrities, so I guess that makes it OK.

--Dan Edge

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What is "the black community"? Who are its members and what are their characteristics?

In what way(s) do they differ from the rest of American society?

[dondigitalia 0]

Well, there is melodic rap: try listening to almost anything produced by Dr. Dre (who discovered Eminem), anything by Outkast, Nelly, or DJ Quick (I mention those that quickly come to mind).  There was also a whole movement of jazz-infused rap that was pretty big in the early 90s.

True. I'm not a big fan of Dr. or Nelly, but Outkast's music is truly amazing (I'm completely unfamiliar with DJ Quick). I'll also recommend Bone Thugs, who aren't quite rap, but have the rythmic/poetic elements of it and also a melody. Their lyrics leave something to be desired, however. Another good example is N.E.R.D.

Not all rap is gangsta rap. There's plenty of life-affirming hip-hop out there, you just have to dig a little more to find it. Oftentimes, a traditionally negative artist will come out with one or two pieces in particular which are against their norm. Take Eminem's "8 Mile," for example. The domination of a poor sense of life in this genre, including the inconsistency of individual artists is one of the reasons I don't typically listen to a whole lot of it.

I don't think anyone can really say that all rap is objectively good or bad. It really depends on each individual piece. Some musical, life-affirming rap (Outkast consistently delivers in both these areas) does exist... it's just a little harder to come by.

[ADS 0]

I remember tolerating a few friends' constant playing of Guns & Roses and Metallica during my late teens. It's negative, angry music, which I expect creates a negative effect on one's psyche. "Thrash metal" sounds like a physical assault on the mind.

I don't get this out of those bands at all (and nor do other Objectivists I know who enjoy "heavy metal"). I positively love a lot of Metallica's music; it is confident and assertive, but malevolence I see not. Indeed, much of their music is extremely intelligent, seamlessly integrating beautifully intricate melodies. But I find that some people are literally unable to see this on account of the "heaviness" of the guitar, and the generally sundry persona that rock musicians often maintain. So, try here, here, and here to listen to samples of some of Metallica's songs played with cellos (RealPlayer required). (My girlfriend, who does not like metal at all, but who likes classical, opera, Fred & Ginger, etc., thinks that these cello pieces are some of the most beautiful music she has ever heard.)

God knows that there is heavy metal out there that is terrible. But there are some heavy metal bands who create amazing music -- such as Metallica and, even more eminently, Dream Theater -- that is not only melodic, but downright symphonic and rapturous. Feel free to not like it, but, please, don't turn this preference into a blanket condemnation.