Alex

Almost Beyond Belief

16 posts in this topic

Watching a movie/documentry, mention of an experiment where thoughts affected the crystalline structure of water crystals.

"[Masaru] Emoto decided to see what effects music has on the structuring of water. He placed distilled water between two speakers for several hours and then photographed the crystals that formed after the water was frozen." (see pictures) Mr. Emoto also claims to have captured the effects of thought and emotion on the crystallization of water.

There are also other experiments which demonstrate 'mystical' phenomena such as the Global Consciousness Project where a correlation between randomly generated numbers from electronic devices with major global events is investgated.

I was wondering if there was legitamacy to these experiments. And does this suggest the existence of a new type of wave as the information carrier of human emotion?

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Watching a movie/documentry, mention of an experiment where thoughts affected the crystalline structure of water crystals.

Sounds like you were watching What the #$*! Do We Know!?, which I rated a zero in this post . Emoto's "work" is trash, plain and simple. These are charlatans, not scientists.

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I generally agree with Mr.Speicher's position, however, I must recommend Emoto's work for the unique pictures he has taken of water crystals, the main reason why I became interested in his authorings.

His experimental work is not all rubbish either, simply, his conclusions, where in fact the evidence is inconclusive [1*], and his insistence to paddle these ideas around the world, are what have rightly earned him the title of "..charlatan.."

For instance, there are certain valuable questions that could be raised about the nature of the water molecule and the related variables and their functions, which lead to crystal formation. In that respect, it was at least off some value to me.

To answer your question Alex, no, not at all, its not the source you should be looking towards for an answer to this question. However, I'm very much open to the possibility that there are still more-fundamental biological functions, employed by organisms for their survival.

1* - Instead of testing variables such as acidity, temperature and or mineral concentration of the water samples, just for starters, he jumps to wild conclusions, based on his philosophical convictions, that for instance, water-crystal-formation is effected by human emotions, images of girls faces and even alphabetic characters!

Kircho

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It all sounded too bogus. Any comments on the Global Consciousness Project? This was something I first saw on the Discovery Channel on Daily Planet. As soon as the episode was over I checked out the website, the involvement of Princeton as the central data analysis hub (or basket as they call it) seemed to give it a level of credit, and since I wasn't too sure on the methods they were using for analysis and the equipment used I didn't know how to question its legitamacy.

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Sounds like you were watching What the #$*! Do We Know!?, which I rated a zero in this post

I couldn't even finish this movie. I had a lot of trouble watching these acredited professionals making the claims they were making. Not that they aren't acredited, but the support of these physists of such exotic behaviour without an appeal to a reasonable physical explaination was what bothered me. On a side note, I downloaded the lecture of Dr. Lewis Little on TEW. I haven't watched it in it's entirety yet, but with what I've seen I have enjoyed.

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His experimental work is not all rubbish either, simply, his conclusions, where in fact the evidence is inconclusive [1*], and his insistence to paddle these ideas around the world, are what have rightly earned him the title of "..charlatan.."

Would you happen to know if he was able to associate certain crystal formations to emotions. Was he able to consistently reproduce a certain crystal structure and then produce a recognizably distinct crystal simply by changing the emotion?

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Would you happen to know if he was able to associate certain crystal formations to emotions.  Was he able to consistently reproduce a certain crystal structure and then produce a recognizably distinct crystal simply by changing the emotion?

No, I don't know. As I say, my primary interest in his work are the images of the crystals. Also, when I say that his experimental work is not all bad, I mean to say that it is valuable, in that it raises certain important questions(as mentioned in my previous post).

Do you mind sharing the link to Lewis Little's lecture? I've read about his theory on the net, but had no idea he had released lectures.

Thanks,

Kircho

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... His experimental work is not all rubbish either, simply, his conclusions ...

This assumes that Emoto uses a proper scientific method in accumulating the data from which he draws erroneous conclusions. Such an assumption is unwarranted; the man is a fraud.

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Any comments on the Global Consciousness Project?

Yes. Princeton should be ashamed for soiling their good name. Right up there with remote viewing and alien abductions. Alex, instead of Emoto's prayers over water, and GCPs organized meditations, better you should spend time learning real science.

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Do you mind sharing the link to Lewis Little's lecture? I've read about his theory on the net, but had no idea he had released lectures.

It was a presentation given to the Caltech/JPL community that we made available on VHS tape. Thanks to the technical assistance of Phil Oliver, the presentation is now in a downloadable form at Dr. Little's website, along with several relevant writings.

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... This was something I first saw on the Discovery Channel ...

Of all the science channels with which I am familiar, Discovery is the worst when it comes to hyping junk science and even fraudulent claims of things like UFOs, ESP, etc. All too many times, I've seen them treat seriously claims that had been debunked elsewhere years before. It's to the point that if I were ever to go into documentary production -- an idea I've seriously entertained -- I would refuse to work for Discovery. At least until they cleaned up their act.

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This assumes that Emoto uses a proper scientific method in accumulating the data from which he draws erroneous conclusions. Such an assumption is unwarranted; the man is a fraud. 

 

Yes, my apologies, this is definitely a good example of bad wording. My hope was to express, despite its poverty of scientific method, that this work brings to attention some important questions. And perhaps to show that, while keeping a firm grip on the 'Real' and the proverbial hammer of reason, there may be gained some value from a more thorough consideration of such cases. After all, any good scientific mind is prone to error, especially when confronted with the discovery and elucidation of a whole new set of phenomenon.(Not directly referring to Emoto here.)

Kircho

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It was a presentation given to the Caltech/JPL community that we made available on VHS tape. Thanks to the technical assistance of Phil Oliver, the presentation is now in a downloadable form at Dr. Little's website, along with several relevant writings.

Thankyou kindly, Dr.Speicher, for sharing this link. On viewing Lewis Littles lecture I have been prompted to carry out a more thorough investigation into the validity of this theory.

I'm most interested to find out how he resolves the functions of elementary wave creation, wave undulation and particle traversal, from and through, the 'plenum.'

Kircho

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I'm most interested to find out how he resolves the functions of elementary wave creation, wave undulation and particle traversal, from and through, the 'plenum.'

In effect, in the TEW the elementary waves are the plenum. There is no wave undulation in a medium; the elementary waves are the medium. There is no wave "creation." The elementary waves are omnipresent and do not go into and out of existence. The effects of wave interactions vary, but the waves themselves remain.

You might want to begin your study with my three-part non-technical overview of the theory, available here. Then, if you have some technical background, Little's 1996 paper, available at his website.

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Of all the science channels with which I am familiar, Discovery is the worst when it comes to hyping junk science and even fraudulent claims...

Thanks, that's good to know as the bit of television I do watch it's mostly Discovery, Daily Planet is one of my favourite shows :).

This assumes that Emoto uses a proper scientific method in accumulating the data from which he draws erroneous conclusions. Such an assumption is unwarranted; the man is a fraud.

I don't want to discredit Emoto blindly. What were his flaws in his scientific method? Or do you know where I can find his procedures so I can criticize it myself?

Thanks

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I don't want to discredit Emoto blindly.  What were his flaws in his scientific method?

That's like asking "What are the flaws in the scientific method of the bible?" Neither rise to the level of being considered. Emoto's work is right there with burning bushes, parting seas, virgin births and resurrections.

Or do you know where I can find his procedures so I can criticize it myself?

Read his books or pay the bucks for his lectures. Or, I'm sure you can find some stuff on the internet. Try James Randi or junkscience.com. They often debunk that sort of stuff. But, really, we are not talking about analyzing scientific "procedures" here; this is prayer and the like.

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