Stephen Speicher

Rape fantasies in women

162 posts in this topic

It is often said that rape is about violence, not about sex. Yet, over the years I have often read that many women have very erotic and pleasurable rape fantasies. Some consider this a manifestation of psychological problems in these women, but I have an inkling of why a psychologically healthy woman might enjoy a rape fantasy. I wonder what others think?

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I myself had never had a fantasy about rape before becoming psychologically healthy.

After having a boyfriend that I loved and trusted completely, and a complete psychological turn around, I did in fact have some fantasies involving this.

I think that the most important part of desiring this type of fantasy is completely trusting your lover. That he wouldn't hurt you.

Aneurotic fantasy about rape I think is a type of masochism. A feeling of deserving pain due to the lack of self-esteem or worse, their self-loathing. On the other hand, a healthy fantasy about rape would only be with someone you trust and admire. I think this fantasy is an extreme form of the man's role in a sexual relationship. The ultimate form of "taking control".

I think that based from a rational psychology, it can be a very erotic form of fantasy.

~Carrie~

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It is often said that rape is about violence, not about sex. Yet, over the years I have often read that many women have very erotic and pleasurable rape fantasies. Some consider this a manifestation of psychological problems in these women, but I have an inkling of why a psychologically healthy woman might enjoy a rape fantasy. I wonder what others think?

To the extent that a woman fantasizes about being raped in the actual, rights violating form, then I think there are probably psychological issues somewhere below the surface.

However, if what you mean is Dominique-style struggle (but passionately wanting it), then I don't think what the woman is fantasizing about should be called rape. I think this is entirely healthy psychologically. This seems to be more along the lines of what Free Spirit meant (correct me if I'm wrong, Carrie) because she mentions this fantasy in regard to a lover (implying that the woman has given her consent).

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I myself had never had a fantasy about rape before becoming psychologically healthy. 

  After having a boyfriend that I loved and trusted completely, and a complete psychological turn around, I did in fact have some fantasies involving this.

That's really interesting. I never heard or read anyone say that before. Thanks for noting this.

I think that the most important part of desiring this type of fantasy is completely trusting your lover. That he wouldn't hurt you.

 

Aneurotic fantasy about rape I think is a type of masochism. A feeling of deserving pain due to the lack of self-esteem or worse, their self-loathing.  On the other hand, a healthy fantasy about rape would only be with someone you trust and admire.

But many women report these rape fantasies taking place with complete strangers. I do not mean the former sort of rape you describe -- pain, humiliation and self-loathing -- but rape involving wild, uncontrollable passion with a stranger.

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To the extent that a woman fantasizes about being raped in the actual, rights violating form, then I think there are probably psychological issues somewhere below the surface.

However, if what you mean is Dominique-style struggle (but passionately wanting it), then I don't think what the woman is fantasizing about should be called rape.  I think this is entirely healthy psychologically.  This seems to be more along the lines of what Free Spirit meant (correct me if I'm wrong, Carrie) because she mentions this fantasy in regard to a lover (implying that the woman has given her consent).

What then would you say of a woman's fantasy to be taken by a complete stranger?

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What then would you say of a woman's fantasy to be taken by a complete stranger?

LOL. Steeeeeve!! I think you're just trying to get us to say what you think you know, right? Because of course, one can meet a "stranger" who suddenly, in quite short order, becomes most definitely _not_ a "stranger." That's what love at first sight is all about. I can't recall if your lovely romance with Betsy started "at first sight"? I had one which did, and it was quite delightful... later learnings really never contradicted the sense of life I detected instantly. We are no longer together, but not due to sense of life (or safety) issues.

I really dislike when people use the word rape casually. Rape, any forced sex, is truly evil, imho. I think it's crucial that we make it clear what is and isn't rape or a rape fantasy.

I think a lot of women love to be "man-handled" if what that means is to experience his passion (and/or love) as a physical force. For example, think of the common picture of a woman who is standing, leaning perhaps, back onto a car; the man is facing her. It's as if he's backing her into the wall of the car. To be the lady there, with the right man! Ooh!

Note that when this works, it's because the woman is safe in every way: the man knows and respects her limits. Oftentimes, that doesn't need to be communicated verbally.

ok, maybe I'd better stop before I start blushing :wacko:

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p.s. Once I heard that a man wanted to date a woman who was "portable," ie that he could lift and carry. That's another example of something most women would love, e.g. being carried over the threshold is a common fairytale. An important part of romance is to relish in the physical differences between us.

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What then would you say of a woman's fantasy to be taken by a complete stranger?

I think that it is perfectly healthy to fantasize about wild, passionate, man-in-control sex with a stranger, as long as in the fantasy this is something the woman wants (i.e., it is consensual). There is a difference between being taken and being raped.

What I think is probably psychologically unhealthy is a fantasy of wanting something like the disgusting, non-consensual, criminal rape that actually happens (and is the reason that many woman carry mace).

Admittedly, I've never had these rape fantasies, so it is hard for me to introspect this. On the other hand, I certainly can relate to the desire to be taken by a man (but, again, this is very different from rape).

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LOL.  Steeeeeve!!  I think you're just trying to get us to say what you think you know, right?

Oops. I forgot to put on my lead shield to protect against your X-ray vision! ;)

Because of course, one can meet a "stranger" who suddenly, in quite short order, becomes most definitely _not_ a "stranger."

Yes, certainly. But I meant a man whom the woman knows nothing about, other than herself being the cause of his uncontrollable desire.

I think a lot of women love to be "man-handled" if what that means is to experience his passion (and/or love) as a physical force.  For example, think of the common picture of a woman who is standing, leaning perhaps, back onto a car; the man is facing her.  It's as if he's backing her into the wall of the car.  To be the lady there, with the right man!  Ooh!

Uh-oh. Perhaps I need to create an R-rated subforum. :wacko:

Note that when this works, it's because the woman is safe in every way:  the man knows and respects her limits.  Oftentimes, that doesn't need to be communicated verbally.

Yes, but what I had in mind was more like the woman throwing caution to the wind, not so much the "feeling safe" of love, as immediately abandoning herself to all concern and being consumed by the passion she engenders.

ok, maybe I'd better stop before I start blushing :lol:

You and me both. :blink:

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Sarah, did you see my post about not calling what Steve is discussing a "rape fantasy"? Do you agree? I would heartily love to never again hear the idea that sane women have "rape fantasies." If it's consensual, it's not rape, even if it's a fantasy.

I know more than a little of domestic violence, and as best as I understand it, most of the women who are violated by such crimes don't have "rape fantasies" either. I'm not sure that any of them do, but obviously S&M exists, so some people do dream of receiving and administering pain. I just would prefer those people not to be associated benevolently with Oism.

On a slightly different aspect [pretend new post starts here]... It may be important to help men understand what women do and don't want when we say we like to be taken. There's a lot to say, but the basic, imho, is that the man should take baby baby baby steps first and carefully monitor and back off asap whenever the lady seems not inclined. Once a number of baby steps are happily agreed, then there may be time for a, hmmm, shall we call it a "leap"? LOL

Now I can't recall? Did Dominique whip Roark from her horse before or after the bedroom scene?

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Sarah, did you see my post about not calling what Steve is discussing a "rape fantasy"?  Do you agree?  I would heartily love to never again hear the idea that sane women have "rape fantasies."  If it's consensual, it's not rape, even if it's a fantasy. 

Yes, I agree with you. If the fantasy is like Dominique's experience with Roark, then I think it inappropriate to call it a rape fantasy. Roark clearly did not rape Dominique (as has been explained by many previously in other threads/ on different forums).

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. . . But I meant a man whom the woman knows nothing about, other than herself being the cause of his uncontrollable desire.

. . .

Yes, but what I had in mind was more like the woman throwing caution to the wind, not so much the "feeling safe" of love, as immediately abandoning herself to all concern and being consumed by the passion she engenders.

Well, if this is what you mean, Stephen, then I would say I don't think that sounds like rape, and it seems like a quite healthy fantasy. This sounds like the woman wants it (as she herself is the one abandoning control).

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I would heartily love to never again hear the idea that sane women have "rape fantasies."  If it's consensual, it's not rape, even if it's a fantasy.... It may be important to help men understand what women do and don't want when we say we like to be taken.  There's a lot to say, but the basic, imho, is that the man should take baby baby baby steps first and carefully monitor and back off asap whenever the lady seems not inclined.

Which is exactly what is missing in the rape fantasy scenario I had in mind. The woman immediately surrenders as a direct response to the man's uncontrollable passion, and as an expression of her being the one who engenders that passion. That is the fantasy part; there is no caution, just an overwhelming desire for passion.

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If the fantasy is like Dominique's experience with Roark, then I think it inappropriate to call it a rape fantasy.  Roark clearly did not rape Dominique (as has been explained by many previously in other threads/ on different forums).

Just so it is clear, this thread was meant to be completely unrelated to Dominique-Roark. I too bristle whenever I hear someone speak of rape in The Fountainhead.

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Well, if this is what you mean, Stephen, then I would say I don't think that sounds like rape, and it seems like a quite healthy fantasy.  This sounds like the woman wants it (as she herself is the one abandoning control).

Yes, she abandons control, but not in the same way as she does in real life. The fantasy part is as an immediate response to the man's uncontrollable passion, a passion so great that it gives no thought to what the woman wants. That is why it is a rape fantasy.

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What would be appropriate to call this experience, but still encapsulate everything? I think that the main idea is about the man taking and being in control. Mabye something like "domination fantasy"? Not to be confused with any form of S&M.

In regards to helping men understand what women want, I would agree. Although the intimate specifics differ between women, it is good to establish a few basic principles. But don't you think that if a man was in tune with his lover, he would know how she would want to be taken?

In a sexual encounter, a woman's femininity and a man's masculinity is at the forefront. Both are aware of it and there is electricity....

A woman is aware of her attraction, her mental and physical attributes. She loves to be admired, desired and pursued. She is aware to a degree the effect she has on her man. It's almost as if, when a woman is being dominated sexually, she is experiencing to what extent her man can achieve his values, namely, her. She is experiencing his controlled dominance, his purposeful action, his competence.

What I'm trying to figure out is what exactly a woman is experiencing and why.

In this regard, it would be interesting to know some view points on how men regard this. How do they view their masculine role, and woman?

In regards to a fantasy about having wild uncontrollable passion with a stranger, I'm still thinking that over. That's an interesting question...

~Carrie~

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>Oops. I forgot to put on my lead shield to protect against your X-ray vision! ;)

ah hah!

topics; 1.knows nothing 2.abandon

1.Maybe you can tell the gentlemen's side here, since we haven't heard from others. My understanding is that men do sometimes fantasize about women then know "nothing" about. I don't relate to that at all, on a few counts.

First, I like my love IRL, thank you :wacko:, so I tend to fantasize about men I've met and especially about those that kindled my interest IRL. There's a big recency effect; sort of like being a one-man-woman in my fantasies. But when I fantasize and it involves someone from the past, it doesn't really signify much... how to explain... it's not as if I try to redo things or rewrite the past... it's more like; here was some juicy material, think how great it would feel if... right now... For that purpose, maybe I could use any man, even a "pinup" movie hero, but they don't work for me. I love the movies, but I don't dream of the actors.

In other words, in my fantasies, I -do- know about the man; often quite a bit; sometimes even things that need to be omitted in order to fantasize, LOL!

Furthermore, I claim that I'm a woman and women never know nothing about a man who's interested in them. I think it's because safety is so important; that's a hypothesis that may be true for some women, perhaps esp. those like me who are not physically large enough to overpower (any) man. As your wife Betsy said once, men don't always understand how fun it is to think about people, "as if people aren't the most interesting thing in the world." I am -very- keenly aware of how any man, even a newly met man, treats me.

There are hundreds of things I can see in a small time. Does he interrupt me? Does he interrupt others? Does he look in my eyes? etc etc etc I'm not sure what the name of that is; some Oists object to calling it chemistry, but I think that's the common term to label the (sometimes magical) intersection between two senses of life, ie not just the man's sense of life, but how he applies it IRL, to me.

I consider myself to be relatively good at making quick SOL judgments like that. Again, how could one fall in love at first sight -and- feel safe, without that? Of course, for me, there would be no love without safety. Also, the domestic violence cases I have read involved the man's actually being safe for the woman, at first. Then later he turned.

In other words, I hypothesize that the very first thing a woman judges about a man is: is he safe?

2.re feeling of abandoning oneself to passion;

>Yes, certainly. But I meant a man whom the woman knows nothing about, other than herself being the cause of his uncontrollable desire.

>Yes, but what I had in mind was more like the woman throwing caution to the wind, not so much the "feeling safe" of love, as immediately abandoning herself to all concern and being consumed by the passion she engenders.

Again, I feel there are a few reactions I have. First, why? Why would I dream of a man I literally knew nothing about, if I accept, for a minute, there is such a one? What kind of dream would that be? A merman comes leaping out of the sea and jumps on top of me! No.... I don't think so :blink:. He definitely wouldn't be my type :lol:. I like to know he's got a little sense in his head... what if I were a porcupine? Maybe you can concretize an actual dream one might have.

However, that being said, I think I have experienced, numerous times, what you are talking about; but IRL. As a dancer, and a fairly good one, I've had the experience on some occaisions of being at a dance and being asked by a stranger. Here, I would say I'm pretty close to knowing nothing of him. He sort of does come out of the sea and ask me to dance. He's just suddenly there. Then we start dancing. Sometimes there's an intense connection plus an expertise that makes the whole thing such that I am -required-, if I wish to continue the dance at all, to immediately abandon myself to all other concerns and be consumed by the passion he effects. For example, there may be no saying no to lifts and spins that, in my right mind, I might really want to say no to. I've known women who have gotten seriously hurt by such moves... again, I think the onus is on the man and usually they are great, ie I've only known of -partners- being hurt, not strangers. That seems to imply men tone themselves down with women they don't know properly.

Most men are pretty stunned at the end of such a dance... it has to be experienced to be believed... I'd say it's happened at least half a dozen times in my dancing career. Men, please take ballroom lessons! Steve, I think you know some dancing...

What do I think of such experiences? Do I dream of having them? No, definitely not. Why would I? Note; none of such experiences turned into dating; usually the man walks away, appearing awestruck and more than a little frightened... LOL I never knew, really, I really never knew how good I was at intimidating men...

Anyway, back to the topic of thoughts. As Betsy has said many times, the woman is the value, the man is the valuer. Clearly, or imho, in such cases I was treated as a fleeting value. Why do I care that a random man found me wildly danceable? It's nice, but that's it. It was a great dance. Nothing to fantasize over. Even, I consider it an accomplishment; that my expertise and hero-worship are such that I can inspire and enact such passion. It's a great memory. But again, nothing to write home about.

He was like an actor; I was his Marilyn Monroe. Remember what Marilyn said about hateful people can be, that they'd just walk up to her and criticize her? Without a little more, without the SOL bond you get by a little conversation, a little interaction, I feel that's what a lady risks: being treated as an object, literally. In the case I described, the outcome was positive. I've had other, very negative, results of that risk on the dance floor. For example, some men feel they must hold my wrists on certain maneuvers, and I -strongly- object because it makes me feel like a prisoner and because it makes it harder for me to keep my balance in the way I prefer.

I don't care to be any man's Marilyn Monroe in that sense of being idolized without much IRL action and chivalry. To me, "using" me that way comes off as a lack of integrity, that the man is willing to merely idolize and doesn't have whatever it takes to meet me on more than just the physical plane, if that.

I want to be valued for who I am as a total person: a thinker, a doer, a lover of life. No merman knows a quorum about those aspects of me, even if he does know something of my SOL. Again, I perceive my reaction on this as stemming from the safety issue because I don't think men feel the same, or, not to the same degree a woman does.

p.s. thanks Steve for a great post. I had forgotten I wanted sometime to write about being a Marilyn.

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What would be appropriate to call this experience, but still encapsulate everything? I think that the main idea is about the man taking and being in control. Mabye something like "domination fantasy"?

For the fantasy that I described I think "domination" is too much about power, rather than uncontrollable passion.

But don't you think that if a man was in tune with his lover, he would know how she would want to be taken?

But that is something to be learned for a man, since he cannot know that introspectively. But here you are talking about real life, while the subject is fantasy.

A woman is aware of her attraction, her mental and physical attributes. She loves to be admired, desired and pursued. She is aware to a degree the effect she has on her man. It's almost as if, when a woman is being dominated sexually, she is experiencing to what extent her man can achieve his values, namely, her.

That is beautifully expressed, and is what I have come to understand.

She is experiencing his controlled dominance, his purposeful action,  his competence.

That's nice to know. :blink:

In this regard, it would be interesting to know some view points on how men regard this.  How do they view their masculine role, and woman?

Sounds like the makings of another thread. :wacko:

In regards to a fantasy about having wild uncontrollable passion with a stranger, I'm still thinking that over.  That's an interesting question...

I have read that that is a common fantasy among women. Keeping in mind that fantasy does not necessarily correspond to real life, I would be interested in hearing what conclusions you eventually draw.

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Yes, she abandons control, but not in the same way as she does in real life. The fantasy part is as an immediate response to the man's uncontrollable passion, a passion so great that it gives no thought to what the woman wants. That is why it is a rape fantasy.

This is what confuses me, Steve. I think you said you agree that we shouldn't be calling this thread about rape fantasy, but here you say it is?

maybe you could rephrase, and I'll think to see if I can understand.

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>I have read that that is a common fantasy among women.

where did you read that? any details would help.

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>The fantasy part is as an immediate response to the man's uncontrollable passion, a passion so great that it gives no thought to what the woman wants. That is why it is a rape fantasy.

taken literally, this is exactly what I don't think exists for women, and it seems to me to be a great and unfortunate confusion based on FH. As I said, it really bothers me when anyone makes actual rape sound sympathetic; that's the danger of using the word at all. If I have read anything about women having rape fantasies, it has been Oists who were speculating, best I could tell, based on FH.

My take on AR's comment that "if it was rape, it was rape by engraved invitation," is that she was joking. She just couldn't take it seriously that someone thought Roark raped Dominique. (we don't either, from our posts) I think if she had taken the question seriously she would have said something more like; rape? are you joking? of course I don't advocate rape; couldn't you tell Dominique was lusting for Roark?

There has to be thought to what the woman wants; not necessarily in the front of the mind, but at least in the subconscious, I think, for a woman to respond. Again, it's not that this focus on what the woman wants need be learned by long conversations. I've certainly known chivalrous men who are very very masculinely dominant at the same time; and they didn't necessarily need to know a lot about me personally to know what women in general like.

Maybe a way of recapping my thoughts on this is:

I fantasize about my highest ideals: being taken by a man who really sees my light. Having _him_ experience "uncontrollable" desire for me that I'm "powerless" to check. Betsy I think talked, and others have too, about the chase, the tests. One nice scene I think of is from my Paris trip; an older couple come running out of the subway station, the woman first. She's laughing and looking back coquettishly, "running" away, and oh! How could it be??? He -caught- her!!! Astonishing!! He was uncontrollable!! He sought his value and he got it, with his quick tiimely action! Resulting in a kiss, if I recall...

Now that's a fantasy :wacko:

Being taken by a man who literally doesn't think of my desires and is literally uncontrollable in his passion would be like, using Betsy's metaphor, dreaming of a cosmetic surgeon who operates on me for open heart surgery. Maybe he knows something of something and maybe he's passionate, but passion in a vacuum, no context, that's not valuing, that's not even safe.

>For the fantasy that I described I think "domination" is too much about power, rather than uncontrollable passion.

domination is closer to what I'd like to call the fantasy I agree with. Domination has a bad name; I'm not sure if it's like selfishness and should be reclaimed or not. I think it's pretty accurate.

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I think that the most important part of desiring this type of fantasy is completely trusting your lover. That he wouldn't hurt you.

Carrie,

Does this refer to finding the fantasy itself desirable and exciting, or desiring to act it out in real life? I can easily see how trust and safety are important for the latter, but I don't see the connection as easily for the former.

Ed

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[hoping Carrie answers too :wacko:]

>I can easily see how trust and safety are important for [iRL], but I don't see the connection as easily for [fantasy].

Ed, could you tell us the man's side? My understanding is that -men- won't mind as much in fantasy if they'd get hurt. After, all, how many times have men been hurt IRL physically by a woman? Not too often. Again, wrt domestic violence; the cases where the woman is accused of battering, according to the stats I know, uniformly are mutual battering. The woman is often hurt more severely (more hospital visits etc) even if she hits him also.

I've been -accidentally- hurt by a man - on multiple/various occasions - never mind when a man was intending it or in an "uncontrollable" phase.

Thus, if a woman knows she has been and can be hurt by men, and she doesn't like getting bruised (S&M), do you not see how it follows that untrusted men are not the highest type of partner?

And/or, why fantasize about a lesser value?

Do you fantasize about lesser values?

I don't dream about those dance mermen not because they weren't nice. It's just because they're not as great as what a real man could offer; or you know what I mean; a dream man who has earned my trust.

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What I'm trying to figure out is what exactly a woman is experiencing and why.  In this regard, it would be interesting to know some view points on how men regard this.  How do they view their masculine role, and woman?

I'd be glad to chime in, but I'm not sure of the question. If we are talking of a woman's fantasy, the man doesn't a viewpoint because he doesn't exist; he's a fantasy for her.

Is your question: how do men view their role in sex in general? or is it: do men have a related fantasy, not of being dominated, but of doing the dominating? or something else?

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Steve knows, but many others may not, that this topic/subject has been the subject of various talks I've done for years... so that's why I'm so prolific :wacko:

I hope this thread will help me understand better why men don't understand the women's view re safety. We could all do better to understand each other more.

Also, I'd -love- to hear from women who don't care much about safety asap in fantasy. I suspect women who are physically strong and large may feel a little differently than I. But I still hold, on grounds of hero worship, that women want a man to be able to dominate, even if not physically. Even if the heights are reversed, I know of one case, the man is still her hero, very definitely.

Consider two cases. First, what if I were an amazon, a woman 6'8"? I met such a woman. Surely she will marry/date men who are not her match physically. She would have no fears of being physically overpowered. Would she want a man to try to do so? Actually, I think not; wouldn't it be a little silly, for a female giant to want a male midget to try to overpower her?

Do any men dream of women physically overpowering them and their desires, to do what they will with them? I'd like to hear about that... so far I haven't heard :blink:

The amazon I think would want her midget to dominate her, but in the ways he was able. Perhaps she'd marry the genius who overpowered her with words and ideas. We haven't touched on the physical mating of parts of men/women; I think that alone makes it nice for the man to initiate, to dominate. In the animal kingdom, whichever sex penetrates, pursues. That goes regardless of which sex carries the babies. Some Oists I believe tout this as the main reason for male dominance, but I disagree. Dr. Binswanger once said that whatever it is that makes psychological sex differences must be information available to 5year olds, since they are very aware of boy vs girl. Aggression, for ex., is one such trait. Size is too, I believe.

OK, now consider a second case. It occurred to me, is that if I were Betsy, maybe I would fantasize more about mermen. Betsy, please forgive/correct/delete me if I say anything untoward! Betsy has had the good fortune of many many years (do you tell your anniversaries in public?) with a fabulous man who loves her dearly; Steve. Now, that's a huge amount of safety that's a given. No amount of wild and crazy fantasizing on Betsy's part is going to turn Steve into merman-gone-bad. So she, I would expect, could feel free to pass into such fantasies and enjoy them. One man of my acquaintance said, the secret to a great marriage is "wild and crazy sex." Imho I bet there's a lot too that. In that case, perhaps it would inspire better IRL romance, ending like that movie, what was it? where the couple decides to pretend they have never met, but meet at a bar and hit it off. Sort of like rewriting the love story, adding a new chapter that should have / could have been a great real one.

For me, as a single lady, that kind of fantasy is too indirect. I'm not in need of a better romance, I'm in need of -a- [great] romance. And great is not merely a one-dance wonder; it's someone who wants to be -my- one-dance wonder, who wants -me- to think he's a wonder, who actually does care about me enough to control any urges to step on my feet...

Another aspect here is the way a woman can help "light up" a man with her hero worship. It has to do with her ability to help him achieve his values, eg her, as was very well said above.

For me to feel passion about how I have "lit up" a man, I need to respect the reason why I did. Again, in contrast to the Marilyn feeling, where I feel yes I inspired him, but it doesn't feel repeatable.

I want to know I can do it again :lol: and again ;)

For that, ie to really know that I am the valued one, that my SOL lit him up, I think I need some conversation time, even if just at the "stranger" SOL level.

OK, that was a bit of a jumble, too many subjects! I'm having too much fun :)

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