Stephen Speicher

Rape fantasies in women

162 posts in this topic

Ed, could you tell us the man's side?  My understanding is that -men- won't mind as much in fantasy if they'd get hurt.

I don't understand. If it is a fantasy, why would I get hurt, or include getting hurt as part of the fantasy? I'm assuming you mean accidents, not something masochistic. If it is my fantasy, I can have it my way without compromise, so why would I add to the fantasy something I don't want?

After, all, how many times have men been hurt IRL physically by a woman?  Not too often.  Again, wrt domestic violence; the cases where the woman is accused of battering, according to the stats I know, uniformly are mutual battering.  The woman is often hurt more severely (more hospital visits etc) even if she hits him also.

This is a bit off-topic, but I think the ratio of male to female battery victims is closer to even then is implied here. One big difference is cultural: what kind of man will stand up in public and declare that he was battered by a woman? Not to mention cases like Lorena Bobbit. I think there are a lot more cases of women battering men than is talked about in public, but on balance I agree that more women than men are victims of physical battery between partners.

Also, I think emotional pain is an "equal opportunity" danger.

But, back to the topic:

Thus, if a woman knows she has been and can be hurt by men, and she doesn't like getting bruised (S&M), do you not see how it follows that untrusted men are not the highest type of partner?

...

I don't dream about those dance mermen not because they weren't nice.  It's just because they're not as great as what a real man could offer; or you know what I mean; a dream man who has earned my trust.

I can understand strecthing the "handsome stranger" fantasy to "trustworthy handsome stranger" -- i.e., someone who won't harm you, so that you can feel safe and can let yourself go. Is there something more or different than this you have in mind?

And/or, why fantasize about a lesser value?

Do you fantasize about lesser values?

I don't fantasize about lesser values. Why would I be attracted to something I find unattractive?

I haven't discussed it with other men, so I don't know for sure, but I assume some men do. What do they get out of it? I don't know. If they have a twisted psychology and bad premises, maybe it is a psychological defense mechanism.

For instance, why might a CEO pursue a waitress? I think some men really are intimidated by intelligent, independent women, and therefore pursue someone that gives them a secondhand pseudo-self-esteem. See Jim Taggart for details on that. Or Ellsworth Toohey.

And yet, even in these cases of actually pursuing a lesser value, I have a hard time imagining them fantasizing about their partners. Did Jim fantasize about Cheryl or Lillian? I don't think so. I think they

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>do men have a related fantasy, not of being dominated, but of doing the dominating? or something else?

yes, that's the question.

0.do you fantasize re male domination

00.do you fantasize re female domination or neither

1.do you fantasize re a woman who is a total stranger

2.do you fantasize re a woman whose needs and wants you don't know

3.do you fantasize re a woman in a case you don't -want- to know her needs/wants

4.have you ever been worried about being physically hurt by a woman

basically, the best is for men/women to have symmetrical fantasies, then we can meet each other and have splendid IRL experiences :wacko:. I don't think our fantasies are identical; only symmetry is required. In other words, imho the 'equal sex' people have it all wrong that men/women are equal in sex. Interestingly, the main book on the topic said, buried in the middle without attention, that such equal couples had boring sex lives unless... they used domination.

In this case, again imho, all that's required for symmetry is that men say no to 00,3,4. According to what I have in mind, #3 can be answered no if you dream of Marilyn; a man could rightly say, it's not that I don't want to know, that I evade her needs, it's that we just didn't think of... birth control LOL. (present company excepted, joking of course)

I could go on, there is a lot going on in these questions, but the male side hopefully will clarify it all. I expect certain answer-types.

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> If it is my fantasy, I can have it my way without compromise

yes exactly. So for a woman, -no- compromise on safety means that he's a handsome, trusted stranger, as you described. He most definitely is not a wild-eyed emotionally out of control stranger, no matter or especially, if he is wildly attracted to me.

>This is a bit off-topic, but I think the ratio of male to female battery victims is closer to even then is implied here.

It's very much on-topic, because of the relation to safety. I've done reports on this and I agree of course there's a cultural barrier to disclosure. And, regrettably, or not? I did not care to follow the Bobbitt story, I don't recall in her case if she was being beaten, I don't think so... Definitely these are statistics and not absolutes; any woman can take a carving knife to a man in his sleep (ick, I hate even to write it). But if you look at hospital visits and murders, women are greatly more harmed physically. Hospital visits are also subject to cultural barriers, but deaths are not. Basically, it appears that men/women can get equally angry, equally out of control, equally tending to attempt to use violence. However, women on average have less capability vs men to enact it, ie less effectiveness, less power to their punch, literally.

Finally, safety is not just that kind of evil stuff. I'm talking normal stuff can be unsafe for a woman with an untrusted man. A man who spins me without paying attention can clock me on the head with his wristwatch as he's dancing (this has occurred). He's in control; I have to -trust- him to have the sense to notice my height vs the height of his hand/wrist vs the timing of his move vs the motion of his arm.

I haven't ever heard of a man who had to worry about mundane safety like that with women. That's partly cultural. Maybe if women were more in the habit of back-slapping more men would be afraid... very afraid LOL ...I see teens on the train all the time, and the girls try like -mad- to physically harrass the boys, and the boys sit there like rocks, unmoved. The one time I saw a 'cowering' boy, he didn't appear the least hurt (he kept putting himself into the line of fire), and he seemed to be encouraging her as a means to be with the 'in' crowd.

Finally, when you get down to intimacy itself, sex with a man can hurt physically if he's too rough. Again, I don't know of how it could hurt men in a similarly (surprising, uncontrolled) way.

>Also, I think emotional pain is an "equal opportunity" danger.

Absolutely!!!!! And I think a lot of women don't understand how much emotional pain men feel. Some men seem to feel it out of the blue, and it really hurts them because they didn't see it coming. At least most women, when we look back, saw red flags... or our girlfriends could :wacko:.

>For instance, why might a CEO pursue a waitress?

I like that you're the kind of man who will pursue an intelligent woman, but unfortunately I do think intelligent women are at a market disadvantage, all else being equal (but it's not all equal for hi IQ women, so I'm not sure in toto what the results are).

I was going to say you don't need someone who's exactly your equal to feel really visible; but that's false. What I think it is is that the content of what you want to be visible for can vary. For example, my Dad (deceased), whom I consider a genius, did not marry a genius. He married a smart engineer. I'd say that he didn't require visibility for his math intellect from her. Honestly, he didn't need visibility on his math intellect from anyone. It was a given, just part of him, as best I know. He did his (brilliant) work, created a lot of neat things, and got rewarded, and that was that. Mom gave him honor for his intellect; she challenged his intellect, too, like when they would argue at the dinner table about the definition of a word... and when the dictionary came out... Dad was right... I never saw her win on intellect. The one time they had a test of intellect that she won was when she was in the hospital about to have me. They played chess. Each time Mom said "ouch" from labor pains, Dad was so distracted he lost his game!

She had spunk; spunk enough to challenge his IQ. I saw their SOL match especially in their humor. They both loved creating a story IRL, like the time they hosted a theatre-and-make-your-own-Chinese-buffet-in-10-minutes party, which was a smashing success. (Guests were all assigned scripted parts of what to peel, wash, chop, cook, serve, etc)

Spunk is important, vital to an intelligent man according to Betsy (it makes sense); she calls it sass. Hero worship is also vital. Neither of those two are out of the question for actress working as waitress to possess in fine quantities to entice an interesting CEO.

A totally different topic is that I think, regrettably, some high IQ women lose their ability to hero-worship. It is darn hard when Dagny goes to her come out party and none of the men could hold a candle to her :blink:. Dagny didn't lose her hero-worship, of course. That's maybe another 10 topics...

> Did Jim fantasize about Cheryl or Lillian? I don't think so. I think they

[missing end?]

good question... I don't want to go there though...

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Finally, safety is not just that kind of evil stuff.  I'm talking normal stuff can be unsafe for a woman with an untrusted man.  A man who spins me without paying attention can clock me on the head with his wristwatch as he's dancing (this has occurred).  He's in control; I have to -trust- him to have the sense to notice my height vs the height of his hand/wrist vs the timing of his move vs the motion of his arm. 

Yes, but isn't there a difference between the rare, accidental, minor stuff like this, and harm that comes from a habitual disregard of the woman's safety, and intentional harm? I hope you don't equate those, and insist that a man must never allow any sort of harm whatsoever. The reality is that men can make mistakes, regardless of intentions and efforts to the contrary.

In other words, does this trust get broken by such a flaw in his dancing and can't be forgiven? Or does he get put on probation to see if this is a habit or a rare accident?

Finally, when you get down to intimacy itself, sex with a man can hurt physically if he's too rough.  Again, I don't know of how it could hurt men in a similarly (surprising, uncontrolled) way.

Yes, it can. It depends on how rough things get, or how creative. And sometimes things can be bent too hard, or gripped too tightly, or... well, I'll leave more graphic details out, unless you want to know that. Suffice it to say that men can be hurt physically, especially in sensitive areas, and it is an issue of some concern, but not on the same level as what women deal with.

I like that you're the kind of man who will pursue an intelligent woman, but unfortunately I do think intelligent women are at a market disadvantage, all else being equal (but it's not all equal for hi IQ women, so I'm not sure in toto what the results are). 

Actually, I think smart men are worse off. I can't tell you how many times I've met some good-looking woman that quickly lost my interest because of her dullness. Or look at the ridicule smart guys take growing up: nerds, dorks, geeks, etc. Sorry, but smart isn't generally attractive to women. Now if a guy uses his intelligence to attract women, to find what they like and provide that, then that is attractive, but that's not the same thing.

The bottom line for me is that only an intelligent woman can hold my interest for long. I might have fun for a little while with someone else, but a long-term relationship is just not possible for me.

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I look forward to other people's posts!!! Please let me know what you think...

Maybe I should apologize for posting so much. I was in a posting mood and haven't yet posted to 4aynRandFans (except once?) and this is my topic... I wasn't clear I had enough for an essay but maybe I do, maybe even an organized one... (blink not rolleyes; ) :wacko:

And especially Steve and Betsy... By the way, my first thought, Steve, is that maybe you wonder if women's fantasies are like men's. Is that right? Do men fantasize about female mermaids, that they don't know but whose value causes them to feel overwhelming passion to pursue? That seems nice, wonderful, because it speaks to the action-orientation in men. But as I said, I believe ours aren't equivalent, despite their symmetry...

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Okay, here are my answers, however typical or atypical of men in general they may be. I'll let other guys speak for themselves.

0.do you fantasize re male domination

00.do you fantasize re female domination or neither

1.do you fantasize re a woman who is a total stranger

2.do you fantasize re a woman whose needs and wants you don't know

3.do you fantasize re a woman in a case you don't -want- to know her needs/wants

4.have you ever been worried about being physically hurt by a woman

0. Yes and often. :wacko:

00. Not really. However, I imagine a young and inexperienced boy may dream of being with an older, more experienced woman in order to show him what to do. It could help cope with fears of inadequacy to remove the extra burden of directing the show and being responsible for pleasing someone about whose means to pleasure he knows very little. I’ve also heard stories of men with a great deal of responsibility (e.g., corporate officers) engaging in submissive S&M roles precisely because they want the chance to let someone else make choices for them for a little while. (Is that healthy? I don’t know.)

1. Yes, sometimes.

2. Yes, sometimes. I like the fantasy of meeting someone, sparks fly, and the passion heats up, without the long delay of getting to know them, going out on several dates, etc. Too often in real life, I lose interest after a couple of dates because a woman’s good looks don’t compensate for a lack of personality. This fantasy bypasses that.

3. It depends on why and what I don’t want to know. If you mean her needs and wants in the bedroom, then no. I really, really enjoy being able to give a woman tremendous pleasure, which means knowing something about her needs and wants. Or if you mean her more general needs and wants in life, I may not want a relationship with her and don't really care.

4. Not in real life, and definitely not in a fantasy!

I remember back in high school a girl told me her hottest fantasy was for a handsome stranger to just rip her clothes and take her. Meg Ryan shares the same fantasy in “When Harry Met Sally....” She said that’s the only fantasy she’s ever had, and the only variation was what she wore! Billy Crystal was surprised that she didn't have a wider range of fantasies.

Is that generally true? Do men usually have a wider range of fantasies than women? I ask because at first I thought your questions were along the lines of: do you have fantasy #1? #2? #3? etc., as opposed to clarifying what my one fantasy was. My answer is that I have a wide range of fantasies. Is that what you had in mind with the questions?

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Yet, over the years I have often read that many women have very erotic and pleasurable rape fantasies. Some consider this a manifestation of psychological problems in these women, but I have an inkling of why a psychologically healthy woman might enjoy a rape fantasy.

How do you classify a psychologically healthy woman? Will you please provide examples? I am just curious.

This is quite an interesting topic. I do not read women’s psychology books that much but I experience such erotic and pleasurable fantasies since I was a teenager. My concern is, am I psychologically healthy? I am not quite sure.

Such fantasies enlighten up a woman’s sexual life. It is a fuel that sets fire in a woman’s soul. To be needed, to be indulged – passionately – is every woman’s fantasies.

As to the “rape” part of it, Merriam Webster defined it as:

“Function: noun

1 : an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force

2 : unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent”

I think most women have erotic fantasies with their ideal men or someone whom they are physically attracted to. I never had pleasurable fantasy with a man whom I am not physically attracted. And such fantasies does not classify as “rape” fantasies because subconsciously I wanted that man.

But still, I am not quite sure about my theory. I welcome any comments.

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Might I request, for clarity's sake, that we use a term other than "rape" to identify this fantasy? It has been made quite clear that what we are talking about is NOT rape, meaning non-consentual sex, but somthing different entirely.

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>does he get put on probation to see if this is a habit or a rare accident?

yes, and I -hate- to put men on probation. It feels extremely unfeminine. But that's what needs to be done if it happens and there is no immediate corrective. Lots of correctives will do; look astounded and chagrined; apologize profusely; blush and chirp 'oops'; etc. All these require that the man noticed and decided it was important enough to correct. Probation is in proportion to lack of corrective. In contrast, some responses that don't work are; do nothing; smirk; do it twice in a row; do it at next month's dance. The issue is does he respect my safety.

Just like in business, sometimes the accident proves the man. One partner -almost- dropped me to the ground. He quickly, heroically exerted all his energy and force to be sure I was unhurt, even though he himself did get a little hurt. That's chivalry. That's a man I trusted totally.

Again, since we're talking about fantasies, ideals, ideally I never have to worry about that, therefore I choose only those trustworthy looking fantasy guys.

And, regarding 2nd chances; I'm probably the world's biggest believer in 2nd chances. Maybe too much in some other-person's-view, it's burned me a lot. But in some cases it pays off big time. For example, my Mom and I now have the -best- relationship! That is a huge change... as I told someone very recently; I waited years for her! [well, not all waiting, work too of course]

What I've come to realize is that there is a line I can't cross over; if I put someone on probation past my line, I'm just tense and angry with that person; I expect failure. So what I need to do is draw the line earlier so that I'm calm and don't mind the minor trespasses. But that's not always possible, aka with the dance merman as mentioned.

> [physical harm in sex] is an issue of some concern, but not on the same level as what women deal with.

yes, that's what I meant.

>Actually, I think smart men are worse off. I can't tell you how many times I've met some good-looking woman that quickly lost my interest because of her dullness.

Believe me, that happens at least equally for women! I think it's more than equal because I couldn't even experience physical attraction any more once I find someone actually dull. There's just nothing for me; no hero worship for dullness.

>Or look at the ridicule smart guys take growing up: nerds, dorks, geeks, etc.

Hmmm. Guys take a lot of ridicule growing up no matter what, right? Part of guy-passage, as I understand? As a smart girl, I wasn't ridiculed by girls, but I wasn't a part of the less-smart-girls-set either. So I'm not convinced that the boy-smart is harder to grow up, but maybe. I felt mighty lonely in a remote high school with not that many college-bound students.

>Sorry, but smart isn't generally attractive to women.

That I definitely disagree with, if you mean that it's asymmetrical! I'm 1000% sure if you poll the women on this site that they -love- smart men. The -only- time I ever find anything not to like about a smart man is if he's condescending. But that doesn't go with smart territory.

Yes, the population in general goes for similar matches on IQ, and smart is more rare, so the odds are less.

> Now if a guy uses his intelligence to attract women, to find what they like and provide that, then that is attractive, but that's not the same thing.

yes; that's where I think smart women have some edge too.

>The bottom line for me is that only an intelligent woman can hold my interest for long.

yes; but does she need to be your equal, or could she be a bit less (not a lot less)?

and... could she be your better?

Those are the questions that relate to dominance that I've wrestled with this myself. I'm curious about Margaret Thatcher, for example, and AR. For years I thought I required someone smarter or at a bare minimum equal; all my dates were. Now I wonder if there's a way I can reframe so that I could be attracted to a somewhat lesser man. There are a lot more of those, LOL [pardon my vanity]. And I really love men. So I wonder if I'm limiting my options too much and if I should accept/seek/not-nix these. I think equal would be fine as long as we highly respected each other. But lesser, for me, is hard; I'm not so good if the topic is something I consider important, like Oism. How do I remain feminine, like AR did on the radio shows, composed and calm and happy, while this man seems not to understand a word I'm saying? I won't want to follow him on his views. Oist training helps us appreciate intellect imho.

This fall I just had an amazing date who fell into this category. He was really a great guy, we hit it off immediately. Not at all a dull person; very interesting. But, despite his saying he loves intelligent women, when I disagreed with one of his statements, he didn't respectfully ask why I disagreed on x. He said he wanted to argue/"communicate" about it and flashed a few arbitrary [imho] assertions which, presumably, were to pique my interest in such a talk. But to me I felt like, no, why would I want to argue with my date???? What's fun about that?

Some partners do seem to argue a lot. Some of them seem to be really romantically bonded, too. I don't get that, it's not my style I guess... Betsy told me once that I don't sass, but that's not it. I definitely sass the right guy; but I like it all as clearly fun, clearly different from an argument. For big things, I want to know I can depend on a man to be right or to ask me about my views nicely...

Maybe that's too much info re my personal case, but advice/thoughts would be appreciated because until I find my 'one' I'm sure it will be a question for me.

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>Might I request, for clarity's sake, that we use a term other than "rape" to identify this fantasy? It has been made quite clear that what we are talking about is NOT rape

probably, but let's wait until everyone answers, because it's very attention grabbing! :wacko:

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hi Lu!

> I experience such erotic and pleasurable fantasies since I was a teenager. My concern is, am I psychologically healthy? I am not quite sure.

>Such fantasies enlighten up a woman’s sexual life. It is a fuel that sets fire in a woman’s soul. To be needed, to be indulged – passionately – is every woman’s fantasies.

yes! I think you answered your own question. If your soul is fueled, that's healthy, isn't it. My quick, not tested definition of psych health is a a mind/body/emotion that is life-sustaining and self-soothing. If you can't self-soothe, there's something wrong. And if you can't self-refuel, there's something wrong. imho.

> I never had pleasurable fantasy with a man whom I am not physically attracted.

does this mean you have never fantasized about a man you didn't know?

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hi Lu!

> I never had pleasurable fantasy with a man whom I am not physically attracted.

does this mean you have never fantasized about a man you didn't know?

Hello to you too!

I am not quite sure what your question is. Do you mean that do I fantasize only the men that I have personally met and physically attracted to? My answer to that is yes. It will be difficult for me to fantasize an imaginary man.

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>Okay, here are my answers

all as I suspected :wacko: thank you, very fun to read...

>in high school a girl told me her hottest fantasy was for a handsome stranger to just rip her clothes and take her. Meg Ryan shares the same fantasy in “When Harry Met Sally....” She said that’s the only fantasy she’s ever had, and the only variation was what she wore! Billy Crystal was surprised that she didn't have a wider range of fantasies.

I think it's that sort of thing Steve is getting at. I don't have that one, but I'm positive if we quizzed these ladies they'd say of course, it had to be a trustworthy stranger.

>Do men usually have a wider range of fantasies than women?

yes, there is research on that. I was just reading a paper on 'erotic plasticity.' It was saying that ... no it's 10p I really should go for now.

I've gotten a great break, thank you all...

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>It will be difficult for me to fantasize an imaginary man.

my sentiments exactly! yes that was my question. Even more, it feels like, why bother fantasizing an imaginary man when the men I know already have such great potential??? Men are great... I said that before.

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Again, I feel there are a few reactions I have.  First, why?  Why would I dream of a man I literally knew nothing about, if I accept, for a minute, there is such a one?  What kind of dream would that be?  A merman comes leaping out of the sea and jumps on top of me!  No....  I don't think so :wacko:.  He definitely wouldn't be my type :blink:.  I like to know he's got a little sense in his head... what if I were a porcupine?  Maybe you can concretize an actual dream one might have.

First, I want to say that I thoroughly enjoy your posts -- informing and entertaining with honest openness. What more could any man want? :lol:

As to an example from what I have read, the most common fantasy was of being ravished by a stranger, of having her clothes ripped from her body by a man consumed by passion for her. I fully realize, based on what you have so clearly said, that such a fantasy is foreign to you personally. But it does seem to be a fairly common fantasy among women.

However, that being said, I think I have experienced, numerous times, what you are talking about; but IRL.  As a dancer, and a fairly good one, I've had the experience on some occaisions of being at a dance and being asked by a stranger.  Here, I would say I'm pretty close to knowing nothing of him.  He sort of does come out of the sea and ask me to dance.  He's just suddenly there.  Then we start dancing.  Sometimes there's an intense connection plus an expertise that makes the whole thing such that I am -required-, if I wish to continue the dance at all, to immediately abandon myself to all other concerns and be consumed by the passion he effects.  For example, there may be no saying no to lifts and spins that, in my right mind, I might really want to say no to.

If you can experience that in real life, then why not women who take pleasure in fantasy that carries that further? (I am not attempting to talk you out of the basis for what you yourself fantasize.)

p.s. Pardon my ignorance, but what is "IRL?"

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>Sorry, but smart isn't generally attractive to women. 

That I definitely disagree with, if you mean that it's asymmetrical!  I'm 1000% sure if you poll the women on this site that they -love- smart men. 

True, but I was discussing women in general. Objectivist women are a very small group, unfortunately.
>The bottom line for me is that only an intelligent woman can hold my interest for long. 

yes; but does she need to be your equal, or could she be a bit less (not a lot less)?

and... could she be your better?

Good question! I'd like to think so, but honestly, I don't think I've dated someone more intelligent than I. More successful, more educated, or made more money, sure.

I like women that challenge me, that surprise me. My biggest concern with dating someone more smart and successful would be: can I provide her with enough to keep her around? In other words, it isn't a problem, it's a benefit to date a smarter woman, but what about her perspective? Does she get enough from the relationship to stick with it? (If she doesn't, fine, we'll move on.)

Also, I don't think the issue really matters except when there's a wide variance between partners. What matters far more is interests and values in common. I don't size up a woman in terms of how smart she is or isn't. I follow the pleasure: do I enjoy her company? does she stimulate me (physically, emotionally/personally, and intellectually) or drain me? do I want to be with her? do I want to talk to her? does she say interesting things that make me think? do I spend time wondering what she's like (assuming I just met her)? etc.

And I've found that no amount of lists can account for the infinite variances in personal psychology and chemistry. Sure, there are a few "must-haves" and "must-avoids", but once I'm past that I just wing it. :wacko:

How do I remain feminine, like AR did on the radio shows, composed and calm and happy, while this man seems not to understand a word I'm saying?  I won't want to follow him on his views.

That's an interesting comment. How is it unfeminine to disagree with someone? I get turned off by someone who doesn't think for herself. Confidence is sexy!

But, despite his saying he loves intelligent women, when I disagreed with one of his statements, he didn't respectfully ask why I disagreed on x.  He said he wanted to argue/"communicate" about it and flashed a few arbitrary [imho] assertions which, presumably, were to pique my interest in such a talk.  But to me I felt like, no, why would I want to argue with my date????  What's fun about that?

Teasing the other person, being deliberately provocative in a playful manner, can be a lot of fun, in context. Some people (lawyers, for instance) love being confrontational and get excited by the fight. (Others don't; different strokes, I guess.) This fellow sounds like something else was going on, though.

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Yes, she abandons control, but not in the same way as she does in real life. The fantasy part is as an immediate response to the man's uncontrollable passion, a passion so great that it gives no thought to what the woman wants. That is why it is a rape fantasy.

This is what confuses me, Steve. I think you said you agree that we shouldn't be calling this thread about rape fantasy, but here you say it is?

The rape part is that man takes what he wants, passion without concern for the woman. As the women describe it, the stranger just rips the clothes off their body and has his way.

If "rape" is not the best term to use here, then I am not sure what else would be better. In real life most women, just as you and others have described, need to first gain a sense of trust in the man in order to relinquish control. But, in the fantasy the woman does not need that, and instead without hesitation is overwhelmed with the uncontrollable passion of the man. That is why it is a fantasy, in the sense of not being true to life, being different from the woman's normal state. My thoughts on this is that the fantasy permits the metaphysically impossible, much like one might fantasize about time travel.

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I have read that that is a common fantasy among women.

where did you read that? any details would help.

I have read this repeatedly over the years, mostly from psychology journals. Also popular articles. I also recall glancing through a book or two. I have an extensive collection of journal papers from the hard sciences, but I rarely save these sort of psychology references. If you are really interested I suppose I could locate a few journal references, but I wouldn't be surprised if studies on this can also be found on the internet.

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Do you mean that do I fantasize only the men that I have personally met and physically attracted to? My answer to that is yes. It will be difficult for me to fantasize an imaginary man.

Lu, if I may ask: what about a man who you don't know, but whose image you've seen? Is that something you can fantasize about as well? Guys are notorious for responding to visual stimulation, while women supposedly don't respond as strongly. Do you think that's true of women in general?

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If "rape" is not the best term to use here, then I am not sure what else would be better.

I have to agree that the term is inaccurate and undesirable. The actual details of real-world sexual violence are just so repulsive that I think the only women who fantasize about it have serious mental problems and/or extreme masochistic desires.

"Domination" is more accurate, I think. My guess (and, ladies, correct me if you disagree) is that the contrast with the daily gentile behavior is important. It is a fantasy of seeing the passionate desire unrestrained by social niceties and manners. It is a reflection of his confidence in just taking her, knowing she wants it, rather than hesitatingly asking for permission at every step of the way and restraining his desire. It is also the sense of being able to generate such desire in him.

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Lu, if I may ask: what about a man who you don't know, but whose image you've seen?  Is that something you can fantasize about as well?  Guys are notorious for responding to visual stimulation, while women supposedly don't respond as strongly.  Do you think that's true of women in general?

Do you mean about a man whom I never met? a figure that I created in my mind? such as an ideal man? I have never experienced such fantasy. That man in my fantasy should exist, it is not necessary that he knows me or we have met. Like what I have said, it will be difficult for me to fantasize an imaginary man. For visualization purposes, it will be easier for me to fantasize a man who does exist and whom I have seen even in pictures.

I am not quite sure on your final question. I don’t know many women to gather enough evidence in that area.

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basically, the best is for men/women to have symmetrical fantasies, then we can meet each other and have splendid IRL experiences :wacko:.  I don't think our fantasies are identical; only symmetry is required.

That is certainly one use or purpose of fantasy (I just caught on that "IRL" = "in real life"), but I do not think it the only one. For instance, outside of the sexual realm, fantasizing about time travel may serve no purpose in real life beyond the pleasure taken in the fantasy. I think the same can be true of sexual fantasies.

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It is a fantasy of seeing the passionate desire unrestrained by social niceties and manners.  It is a reflection of his confidence in just taking her, knowing she wants it, rather than hesitatingly asking for permission at every step of the way and restraining his desire.

Exactly!

A man who is sure of what he desires. A man who is self-confident to do such a passionate move. That is my fantasy man! Of course, I also consider the physical attributes of my fantasy man.

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Maybe I should apologize for posting so much.

Apology not accepted. Just keep them coming! :wacko:

By the way, my first thought, Steve, is that maybe you wonder if women's fantasies are like men's.  Is that right?

Oh, no. Certainly not about sex. If fantasy serves any psychological purpose, that purpose is too tied to differences in male-female psychology for the fantasies to be the same regarding sex.

Do men fantasize about female mermaids, that they don't know but whose value causes them to feel overwhelming passion to pursue?

I can't speak for other men, but I prefer a woman with beautiful legs. :blink:

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As a side issue here, it is interesting that the innocent act of sex has not a simple verb to express it, while the forced act is expressed with the beautiful-sounding "rape". This is just English, of course; I don't know about other languages.

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