Stephen Speicher

Rape fantasies in women

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How do you classify a psychologically healthy woman? Will you please provide examples? I am just curious.

The short answer is, whether man or woman, to be psychologically healthy is to have an integrated mind capable of honestly and openly dealing with reality. An Ayn Rand hero vs. villain provides many fine examples.

This is quite an interesting topic. I do not read women’s psychology books that much but I experience such erotic and pleasurable fantasies since I was a teenager. My concern is, am I psychologically healthy? I am not quite sure.

Such fantasies enlighten up a woman’s sexual life. It is a fuel that sets fire in a woman’s soul. To be needed, to be indulged – passionately – is every woman’s fantasies.

Oh, please do not take the mere mention of fantasies as some indicator of an unhealthy psychology. There is nothing inherently wrong with fantasy, as long as you clearly distinguish between what is fantasy and what is real.

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P.S Ed,

Yes, that is the question I had for the men. "Do men have a related fantasy, not of being dominated, but of dominating?" And "How do men view their role in sex in general"?

I am very curious on this....

elizabethlee,

I agree with Steven! Your posts are delighful! It sounds like you have gained a lot of insight from your life experience. I'm surprised you are single!

I agree, men are great...... :wacko:

~Carrie~

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Just as an aside,

>Sorry, but smart isn't generally attractive to women. 

That I definitely disagree with, if you mean that it's asymmetrical!  I'm 1000% sure if you poll the women on this site that they -love- smart men. 

True, but I was discussing women in general. Objectivist women are a very small group, unfortunately.

Elizabeth, I don't think it's so much the smartness women are attracted to, as competence. A guy who's purely smart but extremely self-doubting and passive in all things will probably not be attractive, regardless of how big a numbers he can do prime factoring of in his head, or how well he can fix a computer. There was a mention in another thread recently of Bobby Fisher, the famous chess champion who had an absolutely indomitable analytical ability, genius even, and yet in real life was basically a loser and a second-hander regarding all of his opinions. Or take Bill Gates, undeniably a very smart guy, turning the other cheek to any would-be illegitimate claimant to his money. I would assume that's highly unattractive to a woman, regardless of smartness. That's what I think is really sought for: competence, not smartness per se, and so I don't think Objectivist women are any different in this respect at all -- they're just like all women, except they're maybe more explicitly aware about looking for that.

What may be different is that, since competence can express itself in different ways, is that they like different expressions of that competence, but in that sense I don't think that it's Objectivist women vs other women anymore, but simply different women and their personal preferences.

So tying this aside to the theme of the thread, the "rape fantasy" seems to be the expression a desire for probably the highest kind of competence in a man, one that simply can't be stopped or averted -- which, since this is a fantasy where the man can read the woman's mind and know her sanction, I find hard to find anything wrong with. But that's just a guy's perspective :wacko:

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I think it's that sort of thing Steve is getting at.  I don't have that one, but I'm positive if we quizzed these ladies they'd say of course, it had to be a trustworthy stranger.

I've spoken with a couple of women about this (not Objectivists, one in her 20s and one in her 40s), and they both indicated otherwise. The trust simply was not an issue in the fantasy; in fact, it was the lack of concern for trust that made it such a fantasy, as opposed to how they would respond in real life.

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Elizabeth, I don't think it's so much the smartness women are attracted to, as competence.
Err :wacko: Not to imply that I'm more qualified to speak about women than you, at all! :blink: I meant that statement more as, "This is what you were really saying, right?"

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Free Capitalist,

Great point. That's a very important distinction, one that I agree with. It's not what he has in his mind, but how well he uses his knowledge.

I know I would much prefer a man who is skilled and very competent at what he does know, than a genius who has a bad epistemology or ethical code.

~Carrie~

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Also the point about there having to be a stranger is interesting. I think it could still tie into this whole issue of desiring the highest amount of competence: a man who's already familiar runs the risk of already knowing you and your presence of sanction or lack thereof, whereas a stranger is just so metaphysically competent that he knows what's best for himself and for you as well, even without knowing you before. So in a sense, a stranger doing what a familiar man would requires him to have a greater degree of competence, which might explain the desire :wacko:

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Let me clarify what I said, it's not his intellectual capacity, or how smart he is, but how well he uses the knowledge he has.

~C~

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I would have to have safety and trust in my fantasies and real life. My fantasies are just a prelude to real life, so definitely.  There is nothing I would want to fantasize about that I wouldn't do in reality. Just as I couldn't fantasize about a beautiful man because he's beautiful. I would trust him in the sense that he would know his limits of how rough to go, what I like ect....

But if you know it's a fantasy, why not just forget about the safety issue? If he's the guy you dream of, he wouldn't hurt you, right? Or am I missing the boat on this one, and part of the reason he's your ideal guy is that you can completely trust him? And also, which is more fundamental to the fantasy: that this man be safe for you, or that he knows you so completely?

What's interesting about the "trustworthy stranger" fantasy is that it is someone who you don't know, yet you can trust him and he knows you so well.

But you say "fantasies are just a prelude to real life." What about fantasies (sexual or otherwise) that are so over-the-top that you wouldn't ever actually seek to make it real, or it might not even be physically possible? I see nothing wrong with fantasies along those lines. Do you?

To respond to your inquiry about visual stimulation, I am MUCH more stimulated by intellectual/ mental power than by physical appearance.
That's in keeping with what I've heard from other women over the years.

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Let me clarify what I said,  it's not his intellectual capacity, or how smart he is, but how well he uses the knowledge he has.

Rationality, then? Maybe his psycho-epistemology? Those are definitely important for me, too, in regard to judging women.

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And "How do men view their role in sex in general"?

I think the viewpoint of Man the Valuer and Woman the Object is the most accurate that I've come across. In terms of essentials, I see myself as the actor and pursuer. I don't know if this generalizes to other men or to all sexual relationships, but it is the closest description of what I've seen.

There is a sense of having a driving hunger for the woman, to hold her, possess her, protect her, have my way with her; for her to be completely mine. I mean that in a sense of not sharing her with others, but even deeper than that, which I struggle to describe further. There is a sense of power and control, too, of using her for my pleasure.

And there is also a secondary pleasure that comes from providing her with pleasure. When I am really in love with someone, her happiness is very important to me. In a sexual context, that translates into being good at pleasing her, too! :wacko:

And there is pleasure in knowing that this woman wants me, too, but that is distinctly less of my focus than my awareness of wanting her.

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The trust simply was not an issue in the fantasy; in fact, it was the lack of concern for trust that made it such a fantasy, as opposed to how they would respond in real life.

That is true. Mostly, it is purely physical attraction that made me fantasize these men. Although I think it is psychologically unhealthy if one dwells more in the fantasy world than in the real world.

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Ed,

Yes, you are right. Part of why he is my ideal is because I can completely trust him. We will both have gone through a long process to earn this. I think that as a consequence of knowing me so completely, I will trust him. In getting to know me thoroughly, I will have to trust him to tell him certain things. Getting to know someone strengthens that bond, be it lover, friendship, co-worker.

The "trustworthy stranger" fantasy is someone I don't know because I haven't met him yet. That stranger is my ideal, so I would trust him and he would know me.

Of course I don't see anything wrong with having fantasies that are "over the top". For example, I don't see anything wrong for myself to fantasize being Miss Olympia, even if it is a very unrealistic goal, and one that I wouldn't try, as long as I kept my other, more important goals in check. That I differentiated clearly between goals that are unrelaistic and goals that I can achieve. I think it's fantastic to expand on and fantasize big so-to-speak.

And sexually, I think it's important that people fantasize about including "over the top" things to explore their options.

Most definitely, rationality is a given!! It's the first quality I look for in a man.

Hmmmmm...... this gives me an idea to start a thread on ideals! :wacko:

~Carrie~

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Of course I don't see anything wrong with having fantasies that are "over the top". For example, I don't see anything wrong for myself to fantasize being Miss Olympia, even if it is a very unrealistic goal, and one that I wouldn't try, as long as I kept my other, more important goals in check. That I differentiated clearly between goals that are unrelaistic and goals that I can achieve. I think it's fantastic to expand on and fantasize big so-to-speak.

        And sexually, I think it's important that people fantasize about including "over the top" things to explore their options.

A woman after my own heart! :wacko:

A wild imagination is a wonderful gift. It's a terrible shame so many people stifle theirs.

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And "How do men view their role in sex in general"?

I would say that my view is pretty much in line with Ed's.

The way I've felt about women I've been involved with is almost a sense of ownership, but not in the same way one would own a car or a house. Like Ed said, it's much deeper than that, because the woman has chosen to be owned. It's extremely gratifying (and a huge turn-on!) to know that a woman has chosen to be a possessed by me, and that her primary goal is to make sure all of my desires (in every area of life) are fulfilled. And the stronger the woman, the more gratifying it is. It's the single most selfish experience I can name.

And the best thing is that it's a two-way street. A woman isn't just any possession, but one that surpasses all others. She is such a tremendous value that fulfilling her desires becomes my highest goal, so that in serving my wants, she has to sacrifice none of her own.

Now, I've only gone the whole way and been really "in love" once, but that's what it was like. In other relationships there have been varying degrees of possession and mutual desire-fulfillment, and in the end (including the one I really loved) I had lost all interest in possessing them (although, at times, women lose interest in being possessed first).

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Ed,

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A woman after my own heart! :wacko:

A wild imagination is a wonderful gift. It's a terrible shame so many people stifle theirs.

I totally agree! Imagination is what makes dreams and innovations poosible!! People don't realize that their imagination is like a drawing room for their life in which to actualize! (Hmmm, another topic: The impact of imagination on human life!) :blink:

Dave,

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That's beautiful!

Don't make me blush! You know I have a soft spot for beautiful beauticians. :wacko::blink:

I wonder, where does this "hunger" stem from? How do men view us in order for them to feel that way about us? (Not to generalize)

Why is this do you think?

Do you think that only a passionate valuer could feel this strongly toward women in this particular way?

The "hunger" stems from the same place all desires stem from--life as the standard of value. Sexual desire is the most extreme form of valuing. It is unparallelled. It's the pinnacle of all values, and as such, is the pinnacle of life. Actually, I'm just really grasping right this second how right Ayn Rand really was in regard to sex. As high praise as she gave (a proper) sexual response, I don't think it can be put into words exactly how intense the drive for value-possession is when it comes to a woman.

And yes, only a passionate valuer can feel this strongly toward women in this particular way. And the greater a man's capacity for value, the greater his desire toward the woman he loves.

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I wonder, where does this "hunger" stem from? How do men view us in order for them to feel that way about us? (Not to generalize)

For me, I'm aware of two things: a general hunger that is always there, in the background, that flares up and wants satisfaction; and of an intensity in the desire for a particular woman that arises when I become attracted to her. I think the first element is just the natural state of a healthy man.

The second, though, I'm keenly aware begins most often with a physical attraction. I notice the curve of a woman's body; the way a silk garment caresses her skin; the scent of her or her perfume; the way she walks in that tantalizing manner that waves her body back and forth in front of me, advertising her sexuality; if she is very close, I can feel the heat from her skin; or the hot breath from her lips on the back of my neck, if we are very, very close; the way her hair cascades like a waterfall; the soft, gentle way she laughs; or a coy raise of an eyebrow; the feel of the moisturized skin of her hand as I hold it; the twirl of her body beneath a slinky dress as I turn her slowly across the ballroom floor in a bolero; and so much more.

I also notice that this awareness of her physical being is an immediate source of pleasure in and of itself, but the desire so far is but an appetizer. There's more pleasure to be had, and my appetite is whetted.

An example: I was at a ballroom dance competition yesterday and there were two teams cheering for their competitors. We had some wild antics, including the occasional "kidnapping" of members by the other team. Well, this Japanese girl in a very sexy but short skirt went to rescue her compatriot, and distracted the two guards by coyly and slowly pulling up her skirt ever so slightly, just enough to expose her leg a little more. Well the guys went nuts and she "rescued" her teammate.

The point is that a little hint of sexuality was given, and just a little more was wonderfully tantalizing. Compare that to if she had, say, just walked over naked. Completely different! It is far sexier for her to have taken the time, to deliberately tease and flirt with the guys. This builds up the desire quite a lot.

Of course, many things can kill that desire. Suppose she opens her mouth and invites me to her bible study group. Uggh. Or uses "like" and "you know" in every sentence... twice. Uggh again!

Bottom line is the physical aspects catch my eye first, in general, but as I get to know her, the personality and values have to compliment it or there's no chance of a long-term relationship. (That's not to say a short-term thing with intense mutual pleasure is necessarily a bad thing, mind you, but that's a subject for another day and thread.)

Do you think that only a passionate valuer could feel this strongly toward women in this particular way?

A passionate valuer of women, or at least of a particular woman, yes. I suspect some people may be passionate about a small fraction of their lives, but generally, I think what you say is true: only someone who is essentially a passionate valuer can feel this. (See Don Juan de Marco for details.)

Thank you for your feedback Ed, it was great to read! It's wonderful to know that there are men out there who regard us that way.......

 

Glad to oblige, ma'am. <tips hat> :wacko:

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0.do you fantasize re male domination

00.do you fantasize re female domination or neither

I fantasize about male dominance...always.

I don't view life as bad, or the world as malevolent....but I do view life as hard. I experience such an endless ammount of challenges in my day-to-day life, that the thought of a woman is to me a reward. A good example of how I feel can be seen in a picture from right after World War Two, which can be found here. I believe it essential to my masculinity that I am a strong, dominant, conqueror. To engage another conqueror is war. But love is not war. Sex with a woman is that one time where the man can revel in his abilities as a conqueror while, at the same time, satisfying the woman's needs to be conquerored. It is the most perfect trade I can think of.

Even a fantasy about such a woman fulfills a desire within me. I honestly am unable to picture myself enjoying, by any means, a dominant female.

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I honestly am unable to picture myself enjoying, by any means, a dominant female.

Do you mean a woman who is dominant in general, or dominant in regard to you?

I am unable to picture myself enjoying, by any means, a shy, weak, woman who is submissive in every area of her life. What I want is a dominant, uncontrollable, hellfire who submits only to me. .... Is it getting hot in here?

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I am unable to picture myself enjoying, by any means, a shy, weak, woman who is submissive in every area of her life. What I want is a dominant, uncontrollable, hellfire who submits only to me.

Wait a second. Dave, you wrote this? 'cause I coulda sworn I did. :wacko:

That's exactly my sentiments as well. Now if only there were more women actually like that...

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Wait a second.  Dave, you wrote this?  'cause I coulda sworn I did. :wacko:

That's exactly my sentiments as well.  Now if only there were more women actually like that...

lol, they're the best kind.

There's a few of 'em out there. My best friend is one of 'em, but the idea of hooking up w/her really creeps me out (ew!, why did I even think about it?!). I always tell her she needs to stop messing w/boys and find a man who knows how to keep her in check. She agrees; she always says the sexiest thing a man can do is put her in her place when she starts acting ridiculous (which is often).

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Or take Bill Gates, undeniably a very smart guy, turning the other cheek to any would-be illegitimate claimant to his money.

I don't want to sidetrack this very interesting discussion, but since it was said here - I don't particularly see the evidence that that is what he's doing. In today's world you have a lot of parasites who go after money like sharks after blood. He is still the richest man in the world, and Microsoft one of the most successful corporations. He could waste all of his time dealing with those parasites, but why should he spend 1 irreplaceable minute of his life doing so? He hires boatloads of lawyers to deal with that, so that he can get on with doing what he really wants to do. Of course, if he were more philosophical, he could do more to change the culture itself, but that's true of most other highly successful businessmen.

In terms of his psychology, I highly doubt that his attitude towards the parasites is one of indifference. He wrote the earliest anti-piracy tract that I know of, in the 1970s, before anybody realized that software was actually a real business.

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