Stephen Speicher

Rape fantasies in women

162 posts in this topic

wow, there are so many great things I'd like to reply to. I'm over-crowed!

Some thoughts and a concretization of my issue with disagreements, on which

I'd love your help :wacko:.

1.Steve, -yes- please please send me citations. I have read lots of lit on this.

What I would look for as evidence is in depth interviewing: maybe you can

quiz your two friends further;

.do they -also- dream of known men

.are they single or taken

.are these strangers "headless", sort of only an energy, not really a fully

fleshed out man? I fantasize like that; as one person said, it's a way of

getting straight to the fantasy good stuff without the "niceities" which

can be presumed. Notice that an energyOnly fantasy (I hate to call them

headless, since they're everythingless) is really very sparse on detail.

.do these women distinguish non-trustworthy vs not-untrustworthy?

.trust 'not being an issue' means, I expect, that it is not-untrustworthy,

ie worthy of such a risk, or not seen as a risk. Any of these counts as

safe in my book.

.to be a rape, these women must dream of untrustworthy men taking

liberties, and/or specifically dream of force/mutilation, imho.

.I'm still lobbying for the word rape to be completely struck. I'm

patient, will reply more if need be! LOL And thank you for inspiring me!!

2.DonD (Dave?) I -love- your posts, esp. 'her primary goal is to make sure my

desires are fulfilled' and 'reward', 'conqueror.' Imho, you really understand

what the golden prize is... One of my top life goals is to increase the

number of people who understand that vision. Way too few do, imho.

I'd love if you could talk about your idea of reward vs effort; please

comment on my included post below; I'd value your input.

2b.Re the woman who "needs to be put in her place when acting ridiculous,"

I think I agree with the general idea, but I've never been the type to make

my disagreements or feistiness large in public. I'm even less now, so

I'm curious about why you like that ("they're the best"). I think

there's something about me that men don't always see right away;

I need to make it more visible.

3.jRoberts, I -adore- the coming home kiss picture too.

4.EdOc, you said many interesting things.

Re your enjoying many a fantasy that's so over the top that

you'd not seek it IRL, I believe this is a difference between the leader/follower

roles. Leaders ought to go over the top; that's the whole idea of leading.

Followers' goals are to understand the man with the plan and run with

him; maybe protect his backside, if that's what it means when you all

talk about wanting a lady who is only submissive to you. Btw, how do

you know she's that type???

FreeSpirit-Carrie, do you have the over the top dreams often as a %?

I'm not saying they're not to be had, just that I suspect the percentages

are skewed m/f. And, if you're in a relationship, if your partner

is worthy and wants exploration, then creating new ideas is still being

right in line with his vision. [this relates to the sexual plasticity article]

4b.Re where does the hunger stem from, and you say it is primarily

physical appeal. Do you see how I believe that means IQ is not so important

to you? You select first for physical, so you miss out on any possible

Pygmalia. Since you dance, maybe you have seen how easily a woman

can become a princess, with the right costume... Remember that dance

movie where the lady wears glasses and then starts learning to dance

and becomes so hot?

5.Carrie, Lu, Sarah, I'm glad we're 4/4 that we do not have any

kind of rape fantasy... I'm curious if you agree with my below re being

treated chivalrously. Usually ladies are not so much on my side on it...

It's still a bit of a research in progress... I have my theories but don't

consider them 100% tested with Oists.

6.BRoyce, re beautiful sounding words, yes I agree totally. With regard to

what we call these, I wish too there were a word of beauty for sex.

Maybe I should invite my French girlfriend, non-Oist, in... but you'd have

to promise to be nice to her :blink:. She had told me about the French various

words. Maybe one of them would be our new mantle.

On the fantasy's name, may I propose lead/follow?

I was going to say 'power', but that's not actually how I think of it.

Note how nowadays power/domination is considered the worst of all;

even Steve, here, prefers to call it a rape fantasy than a domination one.

I truly think this is cultural perversion, based on the 'economic power'

being 'force' idea. I'd like much more acceptance of power/domination

as natural consequents of inequal abilities and less acceptance of force.

7.Carrie, you're so sweet saying why am I single. :lol: I actually wonder, now

that my Dad died, if I was holding back for him somehow. It was only after

that (end of 2002) that I realized fully that his sense of humor is my top

value in a man. I miss it dreadfully!!!! I find storytelling humor to be the

essence of how to add drama and flourish with happiness in everyday life.

That's why I'm reconsidering my position on intelligence. Before I think I

had ordered my values as intelligence, humor, dancing. Now I think it's

humor above all else, dancing close to tied with intelligence... but not sure.

That's for your values inquiries ;)

8.freeCap, you asked why I don't like to disagree with a man and you said

you like confidence in women. You also said you think I meant more

competence than intelligence. Those are big topics, possibly due another

topic. But it is very related to the appropriateness of lead-follow fantasies.

Basically, I think I'm pretty consistent in wanting to enable the power fantasy

to come about, and chivalry is the means, imho.

8b.Regarding competence vs intelligence, both are important of course.

But to me, the primary is not anybody's current exact state (which I hope

will grow and expand) but their methods and abilities to have methods.

I called it intelligence; maybe psychoepist. is proper, but content and speed

of thought is important to me. Matching on speed is nice :). I've

had cases where it was an Oism/philos issue where I felt like I knew more.

If he were to say, as one man did once on one of my favorite

topics, "I know nothing about that <intentlyListening>" I [was] thrilled!

Super attracted! A man who can admit he doesn't know something without

the trace of fear or doubt; it's just a fact, ma'am. That opened the way

to my explaining my various ideas in a benevolent atmosphere.

8c.Re my disagreements with men; I would -definitely- love some help on this!

I think I can do better. To concretize, here I will share

a possibly out of context but hopefully helpful more details on this

gentleman I mentioned, I'll call him MiddleMan, for his desire to 'meet in the

middle'... :); ie he didn't want to come pick me up for a date. Notice that

the topic in question is procedural wrt dating. It feels particularly

unfeminine to disagree with a man on how he should date me.

Confidence is decidedly not my issue :). If anything, I can come off as

domineering when I get into places where I feel underwhelmed. I've tried to

be more aware of that and change my responses. I also thoroughly enjoy

rapt intense discussion that are back and forth problem solving, working

out of things. I can't say, however, that I find those talks romantic.

Not unromantic; they're part of fabulous friendship, which is also important.

I consider life/dating a grand experiment, so maybe you

will point out something that will change my views or help me to sell them...

================

================

notes & the letters;

1. I'm satisfied with the outcome in this particular case.

I wasn't that certain he was right for me. What seems to happen is that my

uncertainty translates to his noticing I [won't] follow.

2.In response to these emails, I felt a negative feeling of;

oh, a man who doesn't understand lead/follow [the power leitmotif/fantasy]. I

feel a Dr. Peikoff type <inhaleSlowlyExhaleFully..Pause..BeforeSpeaking> reaction;

tres unfeminine, because it feels intellectually too superior. I feel like there's

too much to explain, and he doesn't evidence the slightest desire to hear

my reasoning.

3.I'm a little hesitant to

post the details, but he's a great guy and so really I'm posting more as

something I do see often; not as something horrible.

We had a terrific date (MiddleMan's first words>You're gorgeous!)

4.I've tried to handle my love of chivalry different ways, but so far

I'd say my ways aren't working quite well enough. My ideal goal is if

we disagree on these basics, to part on sweet longing terms, thank you's

flourishing both sides. Clearly here you'll see a lack of such!

5.Here are 2 letters from middleMan, my reply is in the middle [sic :) ]. Numbers,

added by me, represent my points where I had a strong reaction; a snappy

comeback but one that might be a little unappreciated... 10 in the first letter,

8 more in the 2nd. #18 made me laugh out loud. I think he really meant it.

I'd love to hear your remarks about the appropriateness of

each of the numbered parts.... or a gestalt...

===

middleMan>

Thanks for taking time to write

such a lengthy and thoughtful note. You are such a hot woman

1.Be careful, gorgeous. Don't sabotage yourself by having too many rules for

dating. 2.It's 2005 sweetheart. 3.I don't presume to know your dating habits or

successes and failures. But neither men nor women are the same as we were in

70's and before. And that's a damn good thing. 4.Romance can be anything. It's

all about what you beleive. I know women who think spontaenity [=getting together

Saturday evening by his calling at 7p that evening] is the height

of romance. Ask your girlfriends. Maybe some of them agree. 5.Besides, it's all

about chemistry and meeting one another half way, don't you think? Meeting one

another half way is very important. It shows respect and understanding. 6.What

could possibly be sexier than that? 7.And what is life without some risk?

Especially when it comes to dating. It's all risk. 8.If you play it too

carefully you may find yourself bored to tears, in no time. 9.Excitement, desire, passion and

fullfillment all come from a certain amount of risk-taking. I think the only

incompatibilty we share is our schedules. I truly feel that if we could spend

more time together 10.we'd, possibly, find that we're quite compatitble and

cuddly.

How's Wednesday for you? Let's meet for another drink. Sit face to face and

chat again. Looking at you is a treat. Come to my neighbothood.

===

me>

hi! we disagree on a number of points :) Best wishes! Anne

===

middleMan>

11.you are really very rigid and difficult. I like you, you're a very sweet woman, but your inability  for flexiblilty has been my hesitation, no, my stopping point with you. Even though I really want to get know you. I can only imagine that you run into this problem often. As Dr. Phil says, "how's that working for you?" 12.What is wrong with disagreeing with someone? It's adult, to be able to disagree and get along. 13.Sometimes there is nothing more erotic than a sprirted debate. It can show intellect as well as passion. 14.If you're looking for some kind of perfection, good luck, my dear.  15.Do you think meeting a man half way is the wrong way? Again, I really like you, I really, really do, but 16.you've got get over this "being a gift" to a man thing. Maybe I'm wrong but that's how it seems. 17.There's a lot of beautiful competition out there that's much more willing to get close without tests and rules. And guys are hooking up with them, especially on Match.com. It's funny how some women get it so right and some women get it so wrong. We're all just people trying to connect. 18.But I'm curious. What do you disagree with?

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2.DonD (Dave?) I -love- your posts, esp. 'her primary goal is to make sure my

desires are fulfilled' and 'reward', 'conqueror.'  Imho, you really understand

what the golden prize is...  One of my top life goals is to increase the

number of people who understand that vision.  Way too few do, imho.

I'd love if you could talk about your idea of reward vs effort; please

comment on my included post below; I'd value your input.

Well, 'reward' and 'conqueror' came from Jason's post, not mine, so I can't really take that credit, although I do agree with what he said. I have a class starting in 10 minutes, so I can't respond to your post right now, but I promise to do it later on.

2b.Re the woman who "needs to be put in her place when acting ridiculous,"

I think I agree with the general idea, but I've never been the type to make

my disagreements or feistiness large in public.  I'm even less now, so

I'm curious about why you like that ("they're the best").  I think

there's something about me that men don't always see right away;

I need to make it more visible.

Well, I didn't mean to imply that I wanted those kind of interactions to be brought out in public. I think it's really tacky when couples argue (or have extreme displays of affection) in public. Those kinds of things are better kept in private. In fact, if a woman thinks those kind of interactions are appropriate in public, the place-putting will be shortly followed by a dumping.

The reason I think they're the best is because they're the only ones worth conquering. What kind of achievement is it to conquer a weakling? It's not really an achievement at all. There's a lot to be said for the thrill of the chase. And there's a lot to be said about a good, healthy fight when you're in a relationship (and who'd ever want to go without make-up sex!).

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Gates wrote the earliest anti-piracy tract that I know of, in the 1970s, before anybody realized that software was actually a real business.

thank you Phil. :wacko:

btw, sorry my post was so huge, it seems jumle-ish, I should have cut it up...

Also, there are always risks with self-examples... Just wanted to say, in my favor as it were :blink:, that I'm quite happy the way my dating life is progressing. When MiddleMan mentioned risk-taking, he probably meant a reference to my statement, ~"I don't have bad dates." I have -great- dates! :lol: [huh, why is the redhot smiley = 'wub'?]

oh! and Steve asked why I don't [have] the fantasy ending to my IRL dance stories. I hope I don't sound pretentious, etc. but actually I feel I've had a -ton- of fantasies IRL. It's an honor; I've had so much beauty in romance. So many wonderful wonderful men who gave me incredible memories. The pieces have all been there for me. So it's not that a particular thing has that must-explore or forbidden feeling. Predominantly, my focus is not on better fantasy, but on better IRL. I'm at the point where I honestly am not in the market for part credit; that's probably why my fantasies are sort of KISS... my all-consuming energyMan: fires raging between us... [wub-worthy, but I already had one!] The fantasies you mentioned are just not me, right now. Maybe it would be different if there were a specific man!

Maybe this is what Lu was getting at; I believe the most important thing for me to do as a lady is not to fantasize better but to -be- better. It's probably a lot more important that I buy a new dress or wear some makeup. Something I that makes me feel ooh la la... or tra la la... ;)

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Elizabethlee,

Carrie, do you have the over the top dreams often as a %?

I'm not saying they're not to be had, just that I suspect the percentages

are skewed m/f.

I'm not sure if I understand your question clearly, could you possibly restate it a different way?

No, I am not in a relationship, but I agree with you in that exploration, and fantasizing is just as important even if you are in one. It's very healthy for the relationship to try new things.

~C~

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Carrie, do you have the over the top dreams often as a %?

hi Carrie! You all were talking about fantasies that you'd never act on. I'm presuming you also think of things you would act on, right? So are the wilder ones more or less numerous? :wacko: I was trying to say that if you're exploring new territory, ie leading, eg the man's role of pursuit, it seems to say that they'd have that kind of fantasy more often. But that's just a hunch...

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Hi Elizabeth!

Well, I'd have to say that the regular ones and wilder ones are pretty equal. There are sometimes where you can act out at least an aspect of the wilder ones in real life. :wacko:

Why would you suspect that they would have that kind of fantasy more often?

~C~

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Well, 'reward' and 'conqueror' came from Jason's post, not mine

I'm sorry! Thank you Jason...

In fact, if a woman thinks those kind of interactions are appropriate in public, the place-putting will be shortly followed by a dumping.

The reason I think they're the best is because they're the only ones worth conquering.

LOL re dumping! Yes, of course you need to have a worthy object of pursuit, absolutely... The thing I've always been a bit unsure on is how does that get shown by a woman on a purely physical level (since most men say that's the first thing that attracts) and also how does that get shown in first interactions (in public where I feel a certain balance is necessary). I've seen some women whose sass really is not what I'd like to do. Recently I've taken to just using more of my benevolent humor, and that seems like it's on the right track. (men I am interested in more often seem to notice me after only a little interaction)

I've been rather sick; these little chats are very reviving... :wacko:

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  Why would you suspect that they would have that kind of fantasy more often?

hi Carrie! Because when you're creating things, it's partly invention; you need to brainstorm and toss a lot of things around, trying them on for size. Do I like to fly? Or do I like dancing better? Can I do both? Like inventing the choreography; there's a lot of fun work to be done. Just as if you were designing a house; it's designing a life in this case.

Did you have thoughts on the email dialog I posted? The thing some women don't always agree with me on at first is the importance of chivalry, and the correlated female non-initiation. Nowadays, it is de rigeur for women to do a lot of work, to go meet Mr. MiddleMan. But I really believe that it's important, for the sake of a better pursuit, that we give the man a chance to come and get us, to pursue.

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Elizabeth,

I very much like chivalry. It's too bad the feminists are stifling this on some men. I very much like for a man to pursue me. It's a part of the whole masculine role, of pursuing a value.

For example, there was this guy I thought was kind of interesting, and was waiting for the longest time for him to approach me. But eventually I got impatient, and went up to him instead. I was soooo thoroughly disappointed. It never progressed after the first date. I knew then that I would let men chase me, that I would never pursue a man. I will definitely let him know I am interested, but after that, the choice is up to him.

~C~

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hi Carrie!

I very much like chivalry. It's too bad the feminists are stifling this on some men. I very much like for a man to pursue me. It's a part of the whole masculine role, of pursuing a value.

yes!!! Chivalry is :wacko:

Sadly, I feel a whole generation of men really lost it; the 60's or 70's ones I think. I feel it's coming back.. and I love the new more feminine clothes out! Little girls wear skirts!!!

So then it sounds like you'd have a similar reaction as I did to Mr. Middle?

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the erotic plasticity article; Baumeister 2004 , which I referred to, says;

.hypoothesis; men are less sexually flexible; stronger desire for sex, thus their scope for compromise, modification is less. One finding; over time, men tend to keep constant per time the total #orgasms whereas women will vary more

.predicted that unlike male desires that come mostly from inside, women's are more from context, so women would show less consistency between what they say they'd do and actually do.

.this plasticity model is saying that it is adaptive for women to be able to readily change, ie be the sexual gatekeeper.

.data; men's sex lives don't differ much depending on education and religion; women's do

evidence that men have a stronger drive;

.men desire & think re sex more often

.men like more and different partners and sex acts

.men initiate more often, refuse it less, desire it earlier

.men take more risks for sex and expend more resources for it

probably, as usual in psych studies, the differences are not necessarily huge in magnitude.

From this I presume men's fantasies are similarly more varied in scope

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The thing I've always been a bit unsure on is how does that get shown by a woman on a purely physical level (since most men say that's the first thing that attracts) and also how does that get shown in first interactions (in public where I feel a certain balance is necessary).  I've seen some women whose sass really is not what I'd like to do.

This is a really tough question to answer, because in a lot of ways, it's one of the easiest things to see in a woman. It could be any number of things: the way she carries herself, the clothes she wears, the confidence in her voice or laugh, the way she speaks, and of course, physical beauty always helps. But it's not any one of those things, but a summation of the whole package, and different men look for different specifics.

Confidence is the single most attractive thing a woman can have. Posture is a big indication of confidence, as well as articulate, direct speech. Honestly, I have a lot of trouble describing what it is that let's me know she's a strong, confident woman, because it's almost grasped perceptually, and I've never thought to examine it before. I'll have to introspect about it the next time the sight of a woman makes everything I'm thinking come to a screeching halt.

And, yeah, there are different kinds of "sass." I tend to like the ever so slightly bitchy, bratty, my-s***-don't-stink attitude. I'm usually extremely attracted to women with a Jewish background. The most important thing is that a woman knows who she is and is cool with it. Despite the traditional barbie-doll stereotype, men really do have widely varying tastes (except with Angelina Jolie; her hotness is unanimous), and as long as a woman has confidence in being whoever it is that she is, the right guy will pick up on it. But the confidence is key.

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Confidence is the single most attractive thing a woman can have. .....And, yeah, there are different kinds of "sass." I tend to like the ever so slightly bitchy, bratty....

oh, ok, I guess somehow I'd thought sass was a completely separate thing when people talked about it. Confidence of course is crucial. My sass is more like; surely you must be joking [raisedEyebrow]. That's funny about Angelina. She's so gorgeous.

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I very much like chivalry.

We really like being chivalrous. :wacko:

Here's something I wrote a while back. (Context-setter: I was ripping someone a new one about making unfounded assertions regarding my psychology in regard to a compliment I gave a woman about her picture on OO.net, so it's a little sarcastic. My bad. :blink: )

And, I still don't really do the online dating thing. I'm not 100% opposed to online dating. I'm just a hands-on face-to-face kind of guy, so I don't really go lookin' for love via mouse-click. It may be old-fashioned, but I really enjoy seeing my date smile at me rather than some camera man I don't know; I get more satisfaction out of opening doors, pulling out chairs, and picking up the tab than pressing plastic buttons to yield the phrase "bye hun, c u l8r"; and I don't think anyone would disagree that sex is much, much better with a live person than an AIM window.

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oh, ok, I guess somehow I'd thought sass was a completely separate thing when people talked about it.  Confidence of course is crucial.  My sass is more like; surely you must be joking [raisedEyebrow].  That's funny about Angelina.  She's so gorgeous.

I can't really say what other people mean when they talk about sass, but my use covers an array of attitudes, some of which are really unattractive, and others that'll reel me in in a second.

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So then it sounds like you'd have a similar reaction as I did to Mr. Middle?

My reaction was one of annoyance and mild distaste. I rolled my eyes a lot and thought, "Gimme a break."

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My reaction was one of annoyance and mild distaste. I rolled my eyes a lot and thought, "Gimme a break."

YES, exactly!!!!!! Thank you so much for the validation, Dave! :wacko: LOL. I know I'm right but every once in a while it's nice to hear it from someone else too, especially a man. The interesting thing is that usually it's the men who are the most very definite about chivalry; some women are still catching up [present company excepted, it appears].

I loved your letter about online dating. Unfortunately it's the thing I'm most able to do with my schedule. I actually tried to found a website to fix the problems, but let's just say I've got more work to do, maybe 20years or so! But just you wait!! 20years from now I'll have it all figured out... maybe :blink: As it is, I tend to put the online guys on a pretty short leash because there is a tendency for self-selection in the anti-chivalry direction.

>I can't really say what other people mean when they talk about sass, but my use covers an array of attitudes, some of which are really unattractive, and others that'll reel me in in a second.

If things occur to you, I'd love to hear it. I'm glad you say that it ranges from plus to minus. That also I think had been bothering me. Some sass I find really negative, sometimes there's man-hating sass, which couldn't possibly be attractive, I didn't think. Fast talkers seem to do well; it kind of makes sense, almost metaphorically, like 'catch me if you can'. Everyone likes different shades of course, and I think it relates to one's sense of humor preferences. For example, on your online dating post, I didn't find it too sarcastic, just right on, exactly my cup of tea. What I don't like is words that need to be xxx'd out with $$$'s. That's my sassLimit. :lol:.

For a bit of time I tried to convert statements into sassy statements. I had some success but it was hard! I felt like there were a million considerations. But it was fun to chat about it with sassy girlfriends and chivalrous men. My sometimes issue is that I get sort of a stunned reaction, just when I should be whipping back the repartee!

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First, I want to say that I thoroughly enjoy your posts -- informing and entertaining with honest openness. What more could any man want?  :wacko: 

------------------

How about a phone number?

:blink:

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[off topic] Gosh I really needed this refueling, a little laughter... Some really un-fun things are happening in my family right now... my little neice, 3.5years old, was diagnosed with leukemia... and I'm not well enough to be there to help... Tomorrow I think I'll really feel much better, after I get a nice sleep.

Thank you all :wacko::blink:

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Steve, -yes- please please send me citations.  I have read lots of lit on this.

What I would look for as evidence is in depth interviewing:  maybe you can

quiz your two friends further; ...

Okay, I'll try to resurrect some of my reading. Please be patient, though, since I am just swamped.

As to the two women I spoke with, the younger one was married and the older one was single. Both indicated that the stranger in the fantasy was inspired by a real stranger. Both were quite consciously aware of the trust issue in real life, but the fantasies were not your "not-untrustworthy." Again, and this struck me quite deeply, both were into the fantasy because the issue of trust was non-existent; that was the fantasy. All that mattered was the uncontrollable passion.

I'd like much more acceptance of power/domination as natural consequents of inequal abilities and less acceptance of force.

For me, at least, that is more easily said than done. The connotation simply does not reflect the fantasy I described. If not a "rape fantasy," then perhaps the type of fantasy that the women described (not yours, but theirs) might be better characterized by "wanton passion fantasy." I don't know, but this stranger-rips-my-clothes-off sort of fantasy does not seem to be shared by the women who have spoken up here.

Regarding "Middleman": based on what he wrote, I say pass over the middleman and go straight for the man! "Middleman" is not much of a man in my book.

Though, one thing he said resonates: "Sometimes there is nothing more erotic than a sprirted[sic] debate." Unless I have misunderstood you, I think you said that your don't want to argue or debate with a man, at least not with a romantic partner. If that is correct, then I don't understand why. Speaking personally, I love to be challenged by Betsy, and we have had many kick-em-in-the-pants intellectual battles. And, I love them! I think "Middleman" was right at least about that; after the battle led to great times. :wacko:

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"Middleman" is not much of a man in my book.

Agreed.

Though, one thing he said resonates: "Sometimes there is nothing more erotic than a sprirted[sic] debate." Speaking personally, I love to be challenged by Betsy, and we have had many kick-em-in-the-pants intellectual battles. And, I love them! I think "Middleman" was right at least about that; after the battle led to great times.  :wacko:

Agreed again.

I really enjoy a good debate in general; it's extremely sexy when I find a woman who can hold her own against me, especially when she she wins. :blink:

And, yeah, after the battle... :lol:

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[off topic]  Gosh I really needed this refueling, a little laughter... Some really un-fun things are happening in my family right now... my little neice, 3.5years old, was diagnosed with leukemia... and I'm not well enough to be there to help...  Tomorrow I think I'll really feel much better, after I get a nice sleep.

Thank you all :wacko:  :blink:

What a terribly sad thing that is about your niece. You and your family might want to take a look at the Physician Data Query at the National Cancer Institute. Not only does it provide state of the art peer-reviewed summaries, but it also contains up-to-date info on clinical trials. There is a section devoted just to pediatric summaries.

And, I'm sorry that you are not well too. Hope you both recover soon.

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I really enjoy a good debate in general; it's extremely sexy when I find a woman who can hold her own against me, especially when she she wins.  :wacko:

Well, I wouldn't know about that last part. Never happened to me! :blink:

<Stephen, ducking for cover ...>

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I've read of female rape fantasies, also. And not the type where the ripple-muscled man from the cover of a Harlequin Romance ravishes the submissive beauty, either, but "grittier", more obviously rape.

Here's a tentative theory, more or less off the top of my head: perhaps many women have a healthier, lusty-er, sexual capacity than they themselves would morally acknowledge. ...for example, an otherwise mentally healthy woman who has internalized a moral code from a childhood of, say, Catholicism. She desires a degree of passion, which, as far as her underlying moral code is concerned, condemns her as immoral. Yet, the desire cannot be stamped out, so she fantasizes of being raped -- forcefully, "passionately" -- without any responsibility or blame. Not only is she not in control, but she doesn't "want it" ... and yet she does. Being "raped" satisfies an underlying, potentially healthy desire, without the condemnation inherent in her moral code.

Please note, this theory applies to a narrow subset of what some of the previous conversation here has referred to. I am not insinuating that fantasy is immoral, or that it always acts as a defense mechanism for some underlying problem. My theory, though, tried to reconcile what I've read, that some of these fantasies are decidedly un-glamorous, involving grimy, hoodlum-types, etc.

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On the third page of the thread a point ws raised whether fantasies are symmetrical here for men too. Well in the sense of uncontrolled passion -- of course, but in the narrower sense of that requirement for a stranger, I think the situations between men and women here are different. For the very same reasons that make it a fantasy for a woman, wouldn't usuall make it one for a man. After all, think about it -- the 'stranger' aspect is a plus because it only exaggerates the sense of competence that the woman is seeking. But what about for a man, that kind of uncertainty is precisely what he cannot afford, since he's supposed to know for the two of them, and so he will probably try to get rid of this sense of uncertainty and the lack of knowledge as soon as possible. So I don't think perfectly matching symmetry is possible here, and I doubt any men here would think so. There's of course a lot of room for a fantasy about uncontrollable passion and a wonderful chance encounter, but I don't think a man would find the uncontrollability and the uncertainty a turn-on, precisely for the same reasons why a woman might.

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