Stephen Speicher

Rape fantasies in women

162 posts in this topic

But what about for a man, that kind of uncertainty is precisely what he cannot afford, since he's supposed to know for the two of them, and so he will probably try to get rid of this sense of uncertainty and the lack of knowledge as soon as possible.

I strongly disagree. A great fantasy is meeting someone and hitting it off and things just click... you try something, she responds intensely, you try something else, she responds even more. It's a fantasy, for crying out loud! You can omit the details that get in the way of the real-life pleasure, like fumbling around, accidentally making a stupid remark, feeling ill, getting muscle cramps, etc.

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.are these strangers "headless", sort of only an energy, not really a fully fleshed out man?  I fantasize like that; as one person said, it's a way of getting straight to the fantasy good stuff without the "niceities" which can be presumed.  Notice that an energyOnly fantasy (I hate to call them headless, since they're everythingless) is really very sparse on detail.
Funny you should specify headless. I've heard the same exact detail from another woman. I wonder if it is a matter of focus, that the men have terrific bodies but the faces are out of the picture to preserve anonymity, because a face is a very specific, unique identifier. Another possible reason: many, many women are very self-conscious about their looks, especially when naked. If the men don't have faces, they can't look at her, judge her, be critical and maybe spoil the mood. She can remove the self-consciousness and focus on being pleased. Does that sound plausible?
4.EdOc, you said many interesting things.  Re your enjoying many a fantasy that's so over the top that you'd not seek it IRL, I believe this is a difference between the leader/follower roles.  Leaders ought to go over the top; that's the whole idea of leading.
Maybe there's a connection there, but I like a woman with a mind of her own, who has a creative side and a vivid imagination. Also, I don't want to suggest that I have something against acting out these fantasies in real life. The point was that in a fantasy, the issue of acting them out or not is irrelevant. You can imagine some pretty wild things, just letting your mind wander, and if you find something really cool, you can consider pursuing it "IRL".
Followers' goals are to understand the man with the plan and run with him; maybe protect his backside, if that's what it means when you all talk about wanting a lady who is only submissive to you.  Btw, how do you know she's that type???
What I have in mind by her being submissive only to me is two things: 1. the point Gail Wynand made about love involving a distinction; 2. I'm not attracted to submissive, cowering, wallflowers, but in the context of romance and sex, the dominant/submissive male/female roles can be celebrated. How do I know she's that type? I find out if how she is in other contexts, around other people, at work, etc., and how she is with me. Maybe she's in charge of a group at work, but looks to me to lead things in the romantic arena.
4b.Re where does the hunger stem from, and you say it is primarily physical appeal.  Do you see how I believe that means IQ is not so important to you?  You select first for physical, so you miss out on any possible Pygmalia.  Since you dance, maybe you have seen how easily a woman can become a princess, with the right costume...  Remember that dance movie where the lady wears glasses and then starts learning to dance and becomes so hot?
I don't mean that the hunger comes primarily from the physical, but it most often initially comes from there. Whether it stays or not is a separate issue. I also think that men have a greater capacity to enjoy the physical aspect of sex more than women, that women need more of a spiritual/emotional connection, which requires chemistry and compatibility, while the need per se for that is less for a man. (Of course, having that extra bond is a very good thing!)

Intelligence, as I've said, is a very attractive quality, as much as its lack is unattractive. One specific example: I met a beautiful woman that, in the context, I thought was just some bimbo who maybe sold clothes at the mall. Frankly, that turned me off. Over the course of a few encounters, she kept introducing herself to me, making excuses to talk, and I was shocked to finally discover that we work close to each other, that she's a very successful and highly respected engineer. It was only at that point that I was attracted to her. I asked around and kept hearing the same thing: she's really, really smart... and this from guys whose abilities I respect! For instance, she's been giving keynote addresses at several international engineering conventions. Needless to say, I'm impressed. Very impressed. And did I mention she's hot? :wacko:

On the fantasy's name, may I propose lead/follow?
Well, that makes me think we may not be thinking of the same fantasy. The term "rape" captures the sense of urgency, excitement, uncontrolled desire, and male dominance, but carries too much negative connotative baggage. "Lead/follow" is too nice, polite, and humdrum. "Manhandle" is better, but not quite intense enough for what I understand this fantasy to be.

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I strongly disagree.  A great fantasy is meeting someone and hitting it off and things just click... you try something, she responds intensely, you try something else, she responds even more.  It's a fantasy, for crying out loud!  You can omit the details that get in the way of the real-life pleasure, like fumbling around, accidentally making a stupid remark, feeling ill, getting muscle cramps, etc.

Ed, I think we're essentially saying the same thing, again. I'm making full allowance for when things click just like that, but I'm also referring to something you raised in the second part of the post, where the guy essentially has acquire as much knowledge as he can, and to shed the strangeness and uncertainty as soon as possible, because everything relies on him knowing what he's doing. In other words, things have to become un-strange to the guy as soon as possible, whereas for the woman they don't -- that's my whole point. Hence why I said the 'stranger' idea is more appealing to women rather than men, and why the reaction is opposite in the two cases, but for exactly identical reasons.

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an otherwise mentally healthy woman who has internalized a moral code from a childhood of, say, Catholicism.

this is so great, I think all this chewing is really going places. How's this for a summary & possibly hypothesis?

.There is no such "The Rape Fantasy," for women globally.

.The proper name for what we are discussing is literally rape, at least at the commencement of the said fantasy: a man comes out of nowhere, uses intimidation and/or physical force to get his way with the woman.

.It is not at all obvious that many woman have such a fantasy. Numbers would help but are certainly hard to come by, particularly for Oists. Maybe a poll...

.I'd still -love- to hear if any Oist women have such a fantasy; if so then maybe we'd take a whole different tack. I can tell my own story of trying that one on; short story is it didn't work.

.There may be a number of issues related to sexual repression or sexual mores that cause women, perhaps particularly in the past [pre-birth control] to have such fantasies.

.For example, if a woman consciously upholds say, a vow of nunnery, but in her dreams she is raped, possibly such a dream could even be sort of a natural, actually healthy, working out of her mind/body integration. Something along the lines of; no, I don't want to speculate. I really think it's dangerous because I don't think there are any non-S&M's who'd say rape is healthy; I hope not... so the lady fantasizing may have a very non-conventional answer to why. Or, she may not know why; after all, how many of us know why we have certain nightmares? Dream analysis is not something I'm that interested in...

.The way one asks the question greatly shapes the answer; notice one of our female posters initially did say yes that she had fantasized rape. But on further reflection she realized she never would use the hallmarks of actual rape.

.Time progression of the dream may be crucial. For example, there seems to be some accord here that, very often, the purpose of a sexual fantasy is -not- to have a long lead-in, a complex plot development. There's really only one interesting part of the story; the climax . :wacko:

.Thus, even for these ladies who -do- actually dream of rape, I'd want to know, was the force, violence, trickery, or whatever was involved, a large part of the story? Or was it just sort of a flash, like "suddenly in less than an eyeblink, he tore off my clothes" and then the rest, which could have come straight out of a normal non-coercive relationship, takes longer and is dwelled upon.

.My difficulty is with the global characterization of women as doing anything close to enjoying rape. My understanding is that that very idea is sometimes used, by villains, to justify their rape. Nothing could be more heinous.

.Maybe I should state a "bias": I am not a fan of Fountainhead's love scenes!!! Actually, I'm really glad I read Atlas first, LOL.

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things have to become un-strange to the guy as soon as possible, whereas for the woman they don't

I like this post because it makes me think. I'm not clear if the basic idea is true, ie that strangeness per se is a turnon for women. Definitely it's at least neutral for both sexes, since finding the sparks flying right away is so delicious... The question is can it be actually a positive value. I said earlier that for myself, I definitely need some quick un-strangeness, ie my SOL size-up. Carrie perhaps ought to reply :wacko:.

Certainly, if there _is_ a case for some women where an actual rape fantasy is considered healthy, then possibly there's something about that strangeness that is appealing in that context. From what we've discussed I expect it's more the forcing that's the essential.

And the Harry/Sally quote, that's on the web; below. From that, note that he's faceless. The author of the movie is a woman, btw. I'd say this isn't a rape fantasy but a quickie fantasy, like quickie sex, right??! She gets to the punch line pretty quickly; for her it seems to be that the man is so overwhelmed by passion for her; that's the exciting part. Everything before/after doesn't matter.

(Harry and Sally walking through Central Park)

Sally: Well basically it's the same dream I've been having since I was twelve.

Harry: What happens?

Sally: No it's... it's too embarrassing

Harry: So tell me.

Sally: Okay - there's this guy.

Harry: What's he look like?

Sally: I don't know. He's just kind of faceless.

Harry: Faceless guy, okay. Then what?

Sally: He rips off my clothes.

Harry: Then what happens?

Sally: And that's it.

(They stop walking)

Harry: That's it? A faceless guy rips off your clothes and that's the sex fantasy you've been having since you were twelve. Exactly the same?

Sally: Well, sometimes I vary it a little.

Harry: Which part?

Sally: What I'm wearing. (Pause) What?

Harry: Nothing.

http://www.nobby.de/e_mwhms.htm

www.nobby.de / When Harry Met Sally ... (USA 1989) - Directed by Rob Reiner

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It is often said that rape is about violence, not about sex. Yet, over the years I have often read that many women have very erotic and pleasurable rape fantasies. Some consider this a manifestation of psychological problems in these women, but I have an inkling of why a psychologically healthy woman might enjoy a rape fantasy. I wonder what others think?

Here's Steve's original question. Steve, maybe it's time, you can unveil your inklings! :wacko:

My question on this topic was originally a little different; approximately;

Do many women have fantasies about rape?

Why? Is it like people liking horror films? (which I don't)

I'd still be curious on the exact numbers and details. I'm tempted to write up a survey. Another question to add to my list;

.Did you find the fantasy healthy?

.If so, how did it help you?

I think, if the numbers were to be obtained, that many more women have -nightmares- about rape and being forced. But that wouldn't get press because it's too obvious... Speculation: 30% have had nightmares, 5% have had positive dreams of rape.

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Here's Steve's original question.  Steve, maybe it's time, you can unveil your inklings!  :wacko:

I already left my ink all over the place. :blink:

I based my inkling on what I gleaned from reading, and the two women I spoke with who had the fantasy. My "inkling" is what I have been repeatedly saying, that the fantasy removes the real life concern of trust and allows the woman without hesitation to be consumed by the uncontrollable passion of a stranger, knowing that she is the cause and object of that passion.

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the fantasy removes the real life concern of trust and allows the woman without hesitation to be consumed by the uncontrollable passion of a stranger, knowing that she is the cause and object of that passion.

Hmm, yes you have been saying that. I don't think it's accurate to say it "removes the concern of trust." Maybe that's why I got confused and thought it wasn't rape. If a woman is being raped, the constant fact of the matter is that he's harming her, he's damaging her, he's stifling what otherwise she would do. That means trust has definitively been resolved, in favor of complete distrust. It's not like a regular non-violent fantasy where trust is resolved in favor of trust, because there's no trouble found.

Given that the woman distrusts the man, how much respect can she have for him? And if the sex itself is screamingly painful, then aren't we in a different category? [s&m] And if the sex is normal, then something has changed, mentally, probably.

There's a cookies story I was going to share, related to my idea of the timeline being so important [things can change, even if they started violently]. In my neighborhood once, there was a rash of robberies. I was frightened. One of my friends decided to sleep with a knife under her pillow! Then a story came out [i may be mixing stories, but the idea is right] that the thief was apprehended, without any fuss at all. How?

Well, he happened to try to rob a nice little old lady. She of course never suspected that a robber would have any ill intentions towards her. But maybe he was hungry? Would he like some milk and cookies? Gosh, wasn't he rather a bit. OK, she'll make some up. They had some conversation, some cookies and milk, and she was perfectly safe. [Here's where I don't recall if she called the police or she got him to turn himself in or if he just walked away but she gave a detailed description.]

Imagine a rapist along those lines; he starts the rape, but the woman feels safe enough to keep sane enough to probably save her life. She maybe talks to him and it turns out with an ending like a pretty normal fantasy. I'd imagine anyone who subscribes the slightest bit to "turn the other cheek" might be susceptible to this. But note that the violence does not continue during the actual sexual part. Thus, though it started as rape, I'm still not clear it is worthy of being touted as a "rape fantasy." "Rape fantasy" puts the focus on the violence. If the sex itself doesn't hurt, then that aspect of it isn't violent. It's as if the woman said "here, take my $100; just don't kill me."

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similarly, I might not "ask" for a man to "throw me against the wall" but as long as he did it in such a way that I wasn't hurt [i bruise easily so other women might not suspect themselves of getting huge immediate pains on the wrong application of 'throw'!], well! As I said at the start :wacko:

But I don't call that a fantasy of violence any more than rape-turned-nonviolent is.

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As an alternative to "the rape fantasy" I have come up with "the mastering fantasy"-----for men, the mastering her (or mastering you) fantasy; for women, the mastering me (or mastered by you) fantasy. It leaves open possibilities of strength on both sides, without any violent or ugly associations. And, it (mastering), is a present, active verb, implying mental and physical competence and achievement.

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BDSM. ...women... enjoy the lack of control, and the resulting release from responsibility.  That isn't anything close to rape though. 

hi William! yes, someone else mentioned about executives sometimes wanting a domineering woman, with a similar valuation; the release from responsibility. Imho, these scenes might even be healthy, depending on a lot of factors, maybe healing in some way. Like a practice run for real surrender on the woman's part or just plain literal rest on the man's part. But I wouldn't call them really romantic.

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How about a phone number? :wacko:

LOL! I didn't see this last night. You're in trouble! :blink: Don't forget to be afraid! :lol:

There's another topic that was opened here. It maybe truly needs another thread... but I'm not doing that tonight, so I'll post a little. This is one of those perfect chances for a little sass, imho. A nice sweet girl, maybe me IRL, would probably just laugh and smile, "oh you're too funny." But there's really a lot more that could be said! A lot more!

How much to reply to balance sass so that it's the right type??? That would be fun to chew. So, first off, the important facts I perceive here are; my screen name has contact info, and Paul hasn't posted before/since on this thread. Secondly, we consider the humorous aspects of the situation. That's pretty clear; what lady in her right mind would post a phone number on a board? So it's pretty funny to suggest it; sort of like a catcall on etherspace, only nicer since catcallMen are guaranteed to Mean Nothing, and ether is ether, maybe it is, maybe it isn't... But Etherman definitely deserves a snappy comeback!! As you can see, I'm way too wordy on this... I love to analyze and then the moment is gone gone gone. Oh well! I had fun! That's all a wink does, but it's a nice thing.

I'm glad Dave & Steve liked this one quote from MiddleMan; I posted the quote because I was curious if anything -else- from his words would resonate. I'm glad thre wasn't anything. This part was a shoe-in;

Steve>one thing he said resonates: "Sometimes there is nothing more erotic than a sprirted[sic][E: even his misspellings are funny, aren't they?? Sounds suspiciously like another verb to me...] debate."

DonD>I really enjoy a good debate in general; it's extremely sexy when I find a woman who can hold her own against me, especially when she she wins.

Steve>Well, I wouldn't know about that last part [when she she wins]. Never happened to me!

<Stephen, ducking for cover ...>

This topic comes under the rubric of drivers' tests of course. As Betsy says, it's really important, and can be terrific fun, to test the driver. Other times it's fun just to drive... maybe one division on categories of sass is how much driving vs how much testing people like. Gottman talks of the types of problem solvers in marriages; passionate, persuasive, and idealistic [not his names, I think these are better...]. Those categories spend most to least time in testing. In the past I've been mostly a persuader, maybe that means up-front testing, and then maintenance tests, but not all out passionate debates very often. Definitely I would -loathe- to be part of a bickering couple. I'd exit. I have had passionate debating, but not yet in a romance. It could be fun, I can definitely see that!

Debate itself can be totally engrossing, in a very good way. And then it's exhilarating to win, and it's intensely satisfying if the man wins; so either way it's win-win, as long as the rules of the game are adhered to. Steve's "ducking" exemplifies, I think, why debating works so well for him. When you debate, you really need to care a lot for each others' views. You need to have fun, still the 5:1 positive:negative events ratio [Gottman]. By adding the ducking line, Steve stresses that he knows Very Well that he's Not allowed to Lord Over his Supremacy. Even if we -all- know it's something that Betsy brags about -constantly- about Steve, he's still right in line for that pillow. I just -feel- how afraid you are, Steve... Afraid you'll be distracted from work! ;)

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As an alternative to "the rape fantasy" I have come up with "the mastering fantasy"

I love that! The only thing I hesitate about, is that my first thought of the "sex mastering fantasy" is Masters & Johnson! Actually, -especially- problematic with the -ing..... Maybe "fantasy of mastery sex" might have a better ring...

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The Sexual Mastery Fantasy

or

The Mastery Fantasy

?

maybe the 2nd? A little mystery in the name might be appropriate...

I like that these names can refer to the perfectly normal aspects as well..

===

Quick google....

Mastery Fantasy http://home.earthlink.net/~dmarshall53/

9/30/05: #10

I am in this blog (lifetime total audience, seven) writing about this mastery fantasy, sending nothing out to be assessed for publication because I'm not ready or afraid (I'm not sure). I'm just writing in my apprentice way, indulging in the secret belief that I may just become (or be) the greatest unpublished writer in America.

It's not healthy.

No such Sexual Mastery Fantasy, but one I didn't click and won't even put the link whole because you never know....

The Sexual Mastery System

The information in The Sexual Mastery SystemTM is not the same, ...

Communication Techniques For Learning Any Womens's Personal Fantasy ...

www.singlescafe.net / sexualmastery.html

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"Sexual Mastery Fantasy" is pretty good; maybe it will catch on.  :wacko:

I agree with elizabethlee that rape has nothing to do with sex, be it completely healthy or less than so. Real rapists do not want to satiate some desire for sexual gratification, but are on the ultimate power trip. Milk and cookies would never work with them -- they'd rape a grandmother, too.

For a better understanding of the mind of a rapist, I recommend Obsession by John Douglas, the original criminal profiler.

Having read this book, I am convinced that robbers and even murderers might inhabit higher moral planes than a rapist. The robber wants your goods. The murderer wants your life. The rapist wants your soul. He wants to become your personal devil, your personal tormentor for the rest of your life.

While there may be one time robbers and one time murderers, I very much doubt that there is such a thing as a one time rapist. Read Mr. Douglas' book, replete with graphic descriptions of actual rapes.

The bottom line: IMHO Objectivists must rescue the concept "sex" from the concept "rape'.

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the fantasy removes the real life concern of trust and allows the woman without hesitation to be consumed by the uncontrollable passion of a stranger, knowing that she is the cause and object of that passion.

Hmm, yes you have been saying that. I don't think it's accurate to say it "removes the concern of trust."

Note I said it "removes the real life concern of trust." (Bold added for emphasis.)

Maybe that's why I got confused and thought it wasn't rape.  If a woman is being raped, the constant fact of the matter is that he's harming her, he's damaging her, he's stifling what otherwise she would do.  That means trust has definitively been resolved, in favor of complete distrust.  It's not like a regular non-violent fantasy where trust is resolved in favor of trust, because there's no trouble found.

May I be so bold to remind you that this is not your fantasy, but rather one that other women have had. What it means to them is not necessarily what it means to you. I repeat again what I have been told by the women who actually had the fantasy: for them, the fantasy part is that there is no issue of trust at all, none, nothing, nada. In real life there would be an issue of trust, but this is their fantasy, and the issue of trust does not exist. That is what allows them to, without a moment's hesitation, immediately surrender to the man's uncontrollable passion, knowing they are the source. In the fantasy the man has no concern for the woman -- his passion simply takes her -- whereas in real life the man would have to earn the woman's trust, lest she kick and scream. In the fantasy she doesn't resist, and is herself just swept away by the passion. That is why it is a fantasy.

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I repeat again what I have been told by the women who actually had the fantasy: for them, the fantasy part is that there is no issue of trust at all, none, nothing, nada. In real life there would be an issue of trust, but this is their fantasy, and the issue of trust does not exist. That is what allows them to, without a moment's hesitation, immediately surrender to the man's uncontrollable passion, knowing they are the source. In the fantasy the man has no concern for the woman -- his passion simply takes her -- whereas in real life the man would have to earn the woman's trust, lest she kick and scream. In the fantasy she doesn't resist, and is herself just swept away by the passion. That is why it is a fantasy.

If the woman is swept away by the man's passion, then she also feels a passion for him, and it is no longer a rape.

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I agree with elizabethlee that rape has nothing to do with sex, be it completely healthy or less than so. Real rapists do not want to satiate some desire for sexual gratification, but are on the ultimate power trip.  ....

The bottom line: IMHO Objectivists must rescue the concept "sex" from the concept "rape'.

Thank you Go4tli, very much. I have read Yochelson's Criminal Personality; it sound like the work you mentioned is a complement. I'd like to read it, but I know those types of things... wow, they are really so intense. I got bad dreams from Dostoyevsky even... so I have to ration that stuff...

I also understand that a real rapist will change what he does if the woman appears to like or accept it. Sort of like the Hitler torture camps.

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May I be so bold to remind you that this is not your fantasy.... this is their fantasy, and the issue of trust does not exist. ....In the fantasy she doesn't resist, and is herself just swept away by the passion. That is why it is a fantasy.

Hi Steve, I'm sorry if I made you angry, I didn't mean to. Of course I understand that this isn't my fantasy. Part of what I'm doing is trying to put together an actual story: I don't understand what their fantasy -is-. I need a play by play with more context if I'm not getting it right. I had been assuming you had written us everything of what you know.

Your posts nowhere talk about the rape aspect, imho. To be rape, means there is force. Where is that in this story? To me, what I've heard so far sounds exactly like the Harry/Sally fantasy but with a one phrase prefix: "a man with a knife..." or something like that. But such a prefix wouldn't make Sally's fantasy a rape fantasy. It is and still would be a mastery fantasy.

Michelle's point is mine that I was trying to make with the grandmother/robber story. The grandmother story isn't primarily, ie essentially, a story of robbery, imho. It's a story of heroism on the grandmother's part. The story started as robbery but ended with something else.

Similarly, Sally's fantasy + rape-ish-prefix is a mastery fantasy because the man did not harm her sexually. She enjoyed it! She went with the flow! She gave herself to the passion. Of course, as also mentioned, that part is, best we know, pure fantasy because rapists don't feel passion. But it's her fantasy!

The more I think of it, the more I conclude that an actual rape fantasy could only be S&M. By that, I mean a woman who dreams of this kind of a postscript: no, no, no, no, I won't even write the violence. It makes me practically ill to put sex together with violence. But there would need to be concomitant violence/force/pain along with the sex/pleasure/passion for it to be an actual rape fantasy.

Do you agree with that distinction between a rape fantasy vs a sexual mastery fantasy?

If your friends, whom we all presume are normal and healthy, actually do add a non-loving postscript to their fantasies, and if that kind of fantasy occurs as a high percentage of either the population or their own dreams (~10%?), then I would say that's a problem. Even if 80% of women dreamed such things, I still would consider it a negative aspect of our culture, aka 80% of people are religious.

Would you agree that it's damaging for a woman to feel, simultaneously, pain and sexual passion?

Finally, I am not trying to devalue your friends. I expect that they add no postscripts, and that, by my criteria, their fantasies are pure mastery. I bet almost all women have mastery fantasies; me included, of course. However, even if your friends do add postscripts that I think are unhealthy in general, it doesn't mean that they are unhealthy for them. There are too many psychological contexts to generalize what is healthy in -fantasy-. Fantasy isn't even close to any objectivity in a way that IRL actions are. I'm pretty certain, though we didn't attempt it, that one could construct a scenario in which such fantasies serve some helpful purpose in a broad context. In a very narrow context, it's a given that a value, physical passion, was experienced.

OK, did that help? :wacko: [i love the blinking, to me it looks like paying attention]

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hi FreeCap! Whee, we have a new page... let me reiterate the positive purpose, summed up so nicely:

>Objectivists must rescue the concept "sex" from the concept "rape'.

Sex is wonderful, sex is good, three cheers! Villains are nasty, three boos!

OK, I feel a little better now, I hope you do too. Thank you for the break... :wacko:

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Hi Steve, I'm sorry if I made you angry, I didn't mean to.

Oh <laughing>, I am not angry. It's funny because just a few minutes ago I had a conversation with a friend about an emotion I saw in his writing, and after speaking with him about his intention the emotion in the writing seemed to evaporate before my eyes. Not seeing or hearing the person seems to often create misunderstandings in electronic communication. Perhaps we need an "I am not angry" smilie. :wacko:

Of course I understand that this isn't my fantasy.  Part of what I'm doing is trying to put together an actual story:  I don't understand what their fantasy -is-.  I need a play by play with more context if I'm not getting it right.  I had been assuming you had written us everything of what you know.

I thought I had, and their fantasy seems so clear and simple to me. I hope things are not being interpreted in an over-complicated manner. Maybe if I try to explain what I understand, using different words.

Some people have fantasies that are not only possible, but they would also hope for these fantasies to occur in real life. Unless I have misunderstood, you yourself have fantasies of this kind. And then there is another kind of fantasy, like the time travel one I mentioned, which is not metaphysically possible and cannot be expected to happen in real life. The fantasy is just too different from the way things actually are. This last is how I understand the women's fantasy that I have been relating here.

In real life most psychologically healthy women desire passion with a man, and need a sense of trust in a man before allowing herself to be taken. If that trust is lacking, and if she is taken without consent, she will kick, scream, bite, and otherwise gouge out the man's eyes. The fantasy removes this real life issue of trust and consent, and allows the woman to abandon herself and experience what it is like to be taken, without concern for her, by the uncontrollable passion of a man she does not know, a passion for which she is the cause. The fantasy is a way for the woman to experience the overwhelming passion she seeks in real life, but to do so without any of the hesitation or doubt that she might experience in real life.

Your posts nowhere talk about the rape aspect, imho.  To be rape, means there is force.  Where is that in this story?

I have said several times that the rape is in the man taking the woman without any concern for her. And, after being challenged I said that rape may not be the best word, but I do not have another. I also gave a reason for rejecting the "domination" you suggested. Now the word seems to be "mastery," but that too does not seem to reflect the fantasy being described. Here is a strange parallel that just occurred to me, which perhaps might help. An inexact analogy may be a woman who is taken while out cold in a drunk or drugged stupor. The issue of trust and consent has been existentially removed from her, but she is being raped nonetheless.

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Oh <laughing>... we need an "I am not angry" smilie. 

An inexact analogy may be a woman who is taken while out cold in a drunk or drugged stupor....she is being raped nonetheless.

Oh good :wacko: Yes yes yes for a non-angry! I like the blinking one, :blink: but its name is "rolleyes" which isn't it at all. Can you rename it???? It should be "listening". It's smiling so really it's not a rolleyes; rolleyes is disgust, ie mouth downward/flat.

What I hear you saying is that IRL the fantasy would be named rape and the perpetrator would be put in jail. Sure. To me, that doesn't mean the -fantasy- is named rape. The fantasy is only named rape if the pleasure is due to [s&m], and if she names her Sally-plus-prefix-fantasy "rape", I advocate let's persuade her, in the name of sanity and etc, to call it a mastery fanatasy. In other words, a Sally-plus-prefix-fantasy seems very plausible. Naming of fantasy ought to reflect the essential value obtained; from the perspective of the fantasizer, who -enjoyed- the Sally-plus-prefix-fantasy fantasy, did she enjoy the knife or the passion? The passion.

I get really hopping about this because I really think rape is far too important a problem to use the word in any inexact context. I want zero chance of a rapists saying, well, women wanted it. No. Women want mastery. Sometimes they can't clear the path to mastery without a prefix. OK. Still, even then, women do not want rape. Women want sexual mastery from men.

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Even if one has a nightmare dream about something illegal and the person cringes, the dream is still not necessarily "about", in essence, that criminality. Dreams don't exist to concretize legal concepts. They exist to tie together things your subconscious somehow thinks relate together. It's up to the dreamer to make a sensible categorization of the dream. That can be a pretty tough job, but here with Sally-plus-prefix, I think it's pretty clear that Man as Sexual Master is a very good guess.

For contrast, or as a nightmare example, a while back I had a dream about myself calling desperately for help because I was locked within a dark, damp, smelly garbage room. Suddenly the door opened, and this person, someone of my acquaintance, screamed at me: "You don't need help!" and locked me in. This dream was not about being held prisoner, not about a crime wave in the neighborhood, unlike a dream I might have had when that burglar was in our neighborhood. This dream was about my un-mastery of my relationship with that person.

A true rape fantasy, as specified above, could only be held by a rapist [or an s&m, which we're omitting]. Those do definitely exist. Yochelson and others say that criminals fantasize many many times about what they do before they do it.

Again, or restating: if one has a fantasy that one likes, and the topic is x, that is equivalent to saying that one likes x. Thus, the definition of x is important. Clarity of terms, good epistemology, etc that we all know.

By the way, I disagree that dreams are purposeless; I feel like it's the opposite, there are zillions of purposes: :wacko::blink::lol:;):):):):):):) . Relaxation alone, and of course art appreciation and the joy of partaking in a scene... And for what it's worth, I've had flying dreams (fun!) and others that are unrealistic.

Wow. What a topic!!!

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