Stephen Speicher

Rape fantasies in women

162 posts in this topic

Betsy, not "even" Aladdin, but especially Aladdin! :) I've had that song in my head this whole weekend, and it really fits so well both in this thread and in the thread about femininity. It's just so matter of course that it's Aladdin who's taking Jasmine flying, rather than she him.

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Michelle, do you like the word 'mastery'?  No other women have agreed yet on that.

I like the idea of surrendering to a man's mastery of sexuality, in fantasy and in real life. I agree that mastery fantasy is healthier than rape fantasy. It is only when the woman is conflicted about her desire for a man, or about her own sexual needs, that she has to resort to rape fantasy so that she can say to herself "I did nothing wrong. I could not help it. He forced himself on me."

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I like the idea of surrendering to a man's mastery of sexuality, in fantasy and in real life. I agree that mastery fantasy is healthier than rape fantasy. It is only when the woman is conflicted about her desire for a man, or about her own sexual needs, that she has to resort to rape fantasy so that she can say to herself "I did nothing wrong. I could not help it. He forced himself on me."

Is that always the case? It looks like this comes from her desire to absolve herself of any blame or responsibility relating to sleeping with some man. There could be many reasons for that desire, some of which could be rational in a proper context. But are there other reasons for this rape fantasy as well? (As opposed to the "mastery" fantasy, I mean.)

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Is that always the case?  It looks like this comes from her desire to absolve herself of any blame or responsibility relating to sleeping with some man.  There could be many reasons for that desire, some of which could be rational in a proper context.  But are there other reasons for this rape fantasy as well?  (As opposed to the "mastery" fantasy, I mean.)

Perhaps the sense of danger may be exciting in a rape fantasy, because it's a fantasy. It's like the thrill of the fall when riding a roller-coaster - the rider knows he is not going to crash, but still feels the terror of falling. He would not enjoy his fear, however, if he was falling for real.

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hi Michelle!

Today, I'm closing some loose ends in case I don't post for a bit. I wanted to clarify;

The main point in Elizabeth's last post is that the term "rape fanstasy" is false and should be replaced by "mastery fantasy."

No, that wasn't my main point. I am sorry I wrote so lengthily that that wasn't clear. This is my point;

Since my personal summary has changed a bit here are a few points in it;

.There is no such thing as a healthy rape fantasy.  There is no evidence for it.  [steve,

My emphasis is on the -healthiness-. Stephen promised citations, which I think were on prevalence of such fantasies, not healthfulness.

I finished reading the book, Obsessions, as recommended by [?]. It did give me bad dreams, but it was very helpful. I know for my work I have to read this stuff. It integrated perfectly with all I already knew.

It gave some facts about rape fantasies wrt rape, which matched what I had known. Basically, rapists do indeed fantasize about rape, many times, earlier even than they do it. And they do also frequently demand their victims to tell them it was good and that they "liked" it. Victims -never- actually like it, not in the 5000+ cases recorded.

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Have any of you all been close to rape and its effects? Have you seen the horrible and subtly horrible effects firsthand? I am super-conscious of this. Maybe discussion of that is in order if we are to discuss the healthiness of a rape fantasy.

I wonder if you agree with Fred, a witty author:

http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm

What is with women these days? I used to think they were nice people that I couldn't understand, but agreeable and mostly friendly and smiled a lot, and you could dance with them. Lots of them were bright and funny. Most were pretty which, given that men are dog-butt ugly, made the world a pleasanter place. A guy could talk to women in those days, and it was kind of fun to be nice to them. All in all, I thought they were a splendid idea.

What happened?

Now when I talk to beings of the lady variety, they can't go five minutes without saying something hostile.

.....It verges on hysteria.  The other day a high-school girl told me solemnly that five out of seven college girls she met in a dorm room had been raped. Sure. And six of them were space aliens on a package tour from Andromeda.

 

Imho, both Fred and the girls are right. Do you think the girls are lunatics?

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hi Michelle!

Today, I'm closing some loose ends in case I don't post for a bit.  I wanted to clarify.

Thank you for the clarification. I understand your point now and agree with you: there is no healthy fantasy where the woman fantasiezes about being forced to have sex without her consent and *against her actual wishes.*

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I wonder if you agree with Fred, a witty author:

I noticed a HUGE difference between girls in high school and in college. Granted, I went to an extremely leftist school (even by college standards), but still... the militant, man-hating, angry attitude was shocking. Fred is right about that. There's simply no grounds for civility when one group sees you as the cause of the world's problems, as evil incarnate.

Imho, both Fred and the girls are right.  Do you think the girls are lunatics?

Why do you say both are right? I have a hard time seeing the girl's story of 5 out of the 7 being raped as typical.

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I noticed a HUGE difference between girls in high school and in college.

wow! Was it a particular timeframe [60's come to mind]? That's quite something to see it so abruptly. How horrible for you... I can't imagine how that would have hurt dating, ugh. sihg.

I have a hard time seeing the girl's story of 5 out of the 7 being raped as typical.

what do you think the # is?

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wow!  Was it a particular timeframe [60's come to mind]?  That's quite something to see it so abruptly.  How horrible for you...  I can't imagine how that would have hurt dating, ugh.  sihg.

I left high school in 1990 and went to college the following fall. This was right at the beginning of the whole PC movement. It didn't affect the attitude of every girl, mind you, but enough to where I was aware of the attitude shift. I went to a PAC 10 school with thousands of students, so people of every stripe where there, and some women were VERY loud and vocal about their politics and complaints about men.

Re: % of women who are rape victims, I don't know the actual statistic. In the modern US, I have a hard time accepting anything above 10%. My guess is it's less than 5%. That's still a lot of women, but nowhere near the 5/7 reported.

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Re: % of women who are rape victims, I don't know the actual statistic.  In the modern US, I have a hard time accepting anything above 10%.  My guess is it's less than 5%.  That's still a lot of women, but nowhere near the 5/7 reported.

Here's an interesting idea I hadn't thought of before that I think is relevant:

This kind of abuse of language is standard feminist fare. The term "rape" is often used to refer to any sex that a woman later regrets, even if she did consent to it at the time. (It's not exactly uncommon for a person, male or female, to exercise poor judgment due to sexual arousal or too much drink.) That's how the feminists manage to claim unbelievably high incidence of rape, most notably that one in every four female college students has been the victim of rape or attempted rape.

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Here's an interesting idea I hadn't thought of before that I think is relevant:

hi Dave!

yes that's very relevant. The whole field has unfortunately been covered with grime, ie unclear definitions, bad definitions, bad studies, small samples, misleading samples, etc etc etc. Everyone here knows about that, I think.

I like to focus on the studies of physical violence, not emotional violence. Emotional violence is almost a contradiction, unless you agree to use certain questionnaires' results as the metric. Physical too can be nebulous.

But one thing struck me; about 33% of women have had incidence in their lifetimes of any domestic violence. By far most common is 'common couple violence.' [CCV] That's hitting, slapping, pushing [as opposed to use of weapons etc]; I can't see my hetero number handy, but one study of lesbians found 33% in a single year [homosexuals generally are very hard to study, however]. CCV, btw, is symmetrical; when carefully measured, women and men do and receive in equal quantities.

Personally, I'd like those #'s to be far closer to zero; no violence in relationships.

I'd have to go back and reread my cites, but what I was particularly thinking of was a study on basically date rape, which should be [imho] defined as forced sex. I don't recall the exact #'s; <= 33% for sure. It shouldn't count mere regret. One can be sure that its incidence is also difficult to measure. But I think it is important.

I don't think women should ever feel date raped or forced. Do you agree?

In both CCV and dateRape, another factor that I think we're seeing is;

The Usual Theorem; what gets measured gets done

Corollary; what gets measured gets reported.

In other words, in many arenas, it often happens that someone asks; oh, is x a problem? Let's measure how big a problem x is. Then people start saying 'x?? I didn't know anyone cared about x. I have one.' 'oh, I have one too.'

So apparent incidence often rises, very dramatically, at the onset of introduction of metrics. Actual incidence is uncorrelated. Also, often we start measuring at finer levels of detail once bigger things are done.

For ex., here in NYC, some big things do seem to be less; murders are less than 10years ago. Suppose some of those fewer murders were domestic violent cases. We could see, upon measuring CCV, any case;

.more CCV because men aren't killing but hit more instead

.more CCV because women are more alert to it & report more [most studies measure women's views btw] and that saves them from being killed

.the same CCV because everything else washed out

.less CCV because the killers were the same ones who did CCV and now they're less

These things would need a lot of careful work to tease apart.

So, what I'm trying to say is that there are legitimate reasons girls hear large #'s [33%] bandied about; and there is also reason to believe that young girls are the ones most susceptible to date rape [even sober and not highly aroused].

That's why I can well believe so many girls in a room [birds of a feather flock together also applies here] have had bad experiences. At the same time, Fred is perfectly right too; the attitude of "it's your fault" never got anyone anywhere, most especially with romantic relations!!

Do you agree?

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