What Does Pride Look Like?

[Duane 0]

Starting from the right metaphysical premises, and guided by Ayn Rand and Leonard Peikoff, I have no trouble understanding why a man's cardinal virtue must be rationality. I also see clearly how applying that virtue means practicing independence, integrity, honesty, justice, productiveness, and pride (I love them all!). But this is where things start to get dicey.

I see that the virtue of independence looks like Howard Roark, Kira Argounova, Ayn Rand, and John Adams, to name a few. It can look like a black sheep in a sea of white, a man who refuses to be a “team player” while the other lemmings go racing for the cliff, or a man who refuses to take someone else's word for it. Easy enough.

But what about pride? What specific traits stand out in a proud man? What concretes?

[Stephen Speicher 0]

But what about pride? What specific traits stand out in a proud man? What concretes?

In The Virtue of Selfishness (p. 30) Ayn Rand notes that the best term to describe pride is "moral ambitiousness." The ultimate expression of pride, then, is the achievement of moral perfection, and the integration of all virtues represents, individually, the traits that comprise pride. As to concretes, for the man of unbreached rationality the achievement of each of his values becomes a concrete expression of pride.

[Duane 0]

As to concretes, for the man of unbreached rationality the achievement of each of his values becomes a concrete expression of pride.

I think I understand your point clearly enough. For example, let's say that an artist puts the last finishing touch on his sculpture, steps back and appraises it, then looks at someone else in the room, and with bright eyes says, "I did it!" — That's pride we're seeing in his expression.

How about when a writer finishes a story; say, he prints it in the finest style that he can, punches holes in it carefully, binds it in a beautiful and expensive binder, and places it in a safe place on his shelf where he can look at it everyday — That, too, is what pride looks like.

Here's where I have difficulties isolating examples of pride:

First, I see a lot of what I think is false pride, for example, people putting on airs like some kind of Roarkian superhero, arrogantly proclaiming that they are the very best at something without provocation or purpose, being too “proud” to ask questions, and so on. I'm not sure what I'm really witnessing in these cases. Can pride be misapplied, or would examples like these simply indicate some other error?

Secondly, and more importantly, I get confused about the way overt happiness and pride come together. I notice that some people reserve their displays of happiness only for “special times” and remain almost dour like an unapproachable Sphinx the rest of the time. The effect resembles pride, but more of the regal Queen variety than the proud sculptor.

Reason tells me that pride and outward displays of happiness are not mutually exclusive, yet this type of person seems to act as if they are. Also, the happiest people I have known just didn't act anything like a Sphinx. I wonder if I'm missing something.

[Burgess Laughlin 0]

For example, let's say that an artist puts the last finishing touch on his sculpture, steps back and appraises it, then looks at someone else in the room, and with bright eyes says, "I did it!" — That's pride we're seeing in his expression.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No and yes. In the context of Objectivist ethics, pride is a virtue, that is, a characteristic of a man that is required for success. We choose our virtues. The virtue of pride is moral ambition, which means wanting to make oneself more moral, that is, more closely adhering to the virtues and values we need for happiness.

If an artist says, "I did it!", he is probably referring to his artistic or technical achievement, not to an improvement in his moral nature -- for example, becoming more honest.

The artist might rightly feel proud of his achievement, but that is a different meaning of the word "pride." This meaning is "pleased with an accomplishment." Thus this "pride" is an emotion, not a virtue (a persistent characteristic of a man).

False pride, hubris, is feeling pleased without having earned it.

I have met some Christians who hold that all pride is immoral, and by "pride" they mean "feeling pleased with oneself."

As often happens, a single word can name a variety of ideas, each referring to different facts of reality.

(See "Pride" in The Ayn Rand Lexicon, pp. 380-381.

Pride is an abstraction. A fictional example of pride, from Atlas Shrugged, is the Wet Nurse. He wanted to make himself better, and in a hostile world he died trying to do so.

[Stephen Speicher 0]

I think I understand your point clearly enough. For example, let's say that an artist puts the last finishing touch on his sculpture, steps back and appraises it, then looks at someone else in the room, and with bright eyes says, "I did it!" — That's pride we're seeing in his expression.

Yes, but a man of self-esteem will say that without someone else in the room.

Here's where I have difficulties isolating examples of pride:

First, I see a lot of what I think is false pride, for example, people putting on airs like some kind of Roarkian superhero, arrogantly proclaiming that they are the very best at something without provocation or purpose, being too “proud” to ask questions, and so on. I'm not sure what I'm really witnessing in these cases. Can pride be misapplied, or would examples like these simply indicate some other error?

Pride as a virtue would not seek the unearned, nor would it depend upon validation from others. What you describe is not an example of the integration of all virtues, but psychological disintegration.

Secondly, and more importantly, I get confused about the way overt happiness and pride come together. I notice that some people reserve their displays of happiness only for “special times” and remain almost dour like an unapproachable Sphinx the rest of the time. The effect resembles pride, but more of the regal Queen variety than the proud sculptor.

I am not sure I follow you here, but if you want to see a meaningful happiness and pride then look towards those who are deserving of these.

Reason tells me that pride and outward displays of happiness are not mutually exclusive, yet this type of person seems to act as if they are. Also, the happiest people I have known just didn't act anything like a Sphinx. I wonder if I'm missing something.

Some people are more publicly demonstrative than others, and I think that there is a wide range where this is an optional aspect of a person. But I get the impression you have something rather specific in mind, as if this "Sphinx" that you mention is really more like a repressed person.

[Stephen Speicher 0]

The artist might rightly feel proud of his achievement, but that is a different meaning of the word "pride." This meaning is "pleased with an accomplishment." Thus this "pride" is an emotion, not a virtue (a persistent characteristic of a man).

←

I would think "satisfaction" more adequately describes "pleased with an accomplishment." Is not the emotion of pride an expression of self-esteem, which itself is a consequence of the virtue of pride? In other words, I see that artist's emotion of pride in his particular work as the immediate form in which he experiences his more general virtue of pride.

[Duane 0]

The artist might rightly feel proud of his achievement, but that is a different meaning of the word "pride." This meaning is "pleased with an accomplishment." Thus this "pride" is an emotion, not a virtue (a persistent characteristic of a man).

←

I should probably point out that my interest is that of a fiction writer. I often gather material by looking for outward signs of an inner virtue (or vice).

Your distinction here is interesting. Would an emotional form of pride not necessarily be an expression of the virtue?

It makes sense that the sculptor's virtue of pride could be realized through his work, for as Stephen wrote: "As to concretes, for the man of unbreached rationality the achievement of each of his values becomes a concrete expression of pride." It seems, though, that I would have to look for that achiever's pride in the form of some emotional expression or physical mode of action such as holding his head high, etc. How else would I see it? I'm not sure that just looking at his sculpture would be enough to see pride as such.

False pride, hubris, is feeling pleased without having earned it.... A fictional example of pride, from Atlas Shrugged, is the Wet Nurse.

Thanks, Burgess, for reminding me of the concept hubris and the example of the Wet Nurse. Two good leads.

[Duane 0]

Yes, but a man of self-esteem will say that without someone else in the room.

←

I thought someone might say that. I decided to place another man in the room because I wanted to "be there" in order to see the expression on his face. Now I see that I should have chosen an omniscient narrator.

What you describe is not an example of the integration of all virtues, but psychological disintegration.

Yes, I'm certain of that. I will follow Burgess's lead about hubris to get to the bottom of this kind of behavior. It can be ugly work, but sometimes it's what a writer has to do.

I get the impression you have something rather specific in mind, as if this "Sphinx" that you mention is really more like a repressed person.

I started this post in part because I noticed that when I ask my mind to produce an image of pride, I almost always see examples of an oft-used fictional character, one who never smiles, is aloof, untouchable, etc. I don't understand why my mind does that, because I know overtly happy people who are also prideful, yet my mind seems to want to go back to that “Sphinx”.

I think I must be struggling against a bromide that I picked up somewhere, which is odd because I don't act that way myself. If anything, I'm on the ebullient end of the spectrum. I think I should take your advice and spend some time watching people who are, as you said, deserving of meaningful happiness and pride. More than that, I need to isolate actual expressions of pridefulness in those people.

Then, as a short-term assignment, I will write a scene that shows a gloriously joyful man thrilling to some kind of action that conveys his pride. I should do that three or four times, in fact. Then maybe my problem will be solved.

[Betsy Speicher 0]

I think there may be some confusion here between pride and self-esteem.

Self-esteem is the value one seeks to gain and keep and pride is the virtue that gains and keep it. Pride is something you do now to make sure you have self-esteem in the future.

So what would you do now to get or keep self-esteem?

When faced with a choice, a man exercises the virtue of pride by choosing to do what he knows to be the right and honest thing, no matter how difficult it may be. A good example of pride in action is Roark turning down the bank commission or Dagny leaving the Valley to return to her railroad.

[B. Royce 0]

I think there may be some confusion here between pride and self-esteem.

Self-esteem is the value one seeks to gain and keep and pride is the virtue that gains and keep it.  Pride is something you do now to make sure you have self-esteem in the future.

So what would you do now to get or keep self-esteem? 

When faced with a choice, a man exercises the virtue of pride by choosing to do what he knows to be the right and honest thing, no matter how difficult it may be.  A good example of pride in action is Roark turning down the bank commission or Dagny leaving the Valley to return to her railroad.

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Then is it incorrect to say, "There is a proud-looking man"? That is, we see an expression or posture of confidence, gladness, or joy---which may be due to his having exercised pride---but we don't "see" pride?

[Duane 0]

Wow! Major discovery!

Last night I couldn't sleep because I kept thinking about this issue, and then I began to realize that something was really wrong in the way I understood pride. So this morning I dug into OPAR, and wouldn't you know it: I was definitely off base. Maybe I wasn't so far off that I was in left field, but I was definitely not in the in-zone, either.

Pride is a virtue. Of course it is. I could have told you that yesterday, since I've read OPAR just like everybody else. But that's not the way I was actually treating the concept. Instead, I was treating it as a value.

A value is something one acts to gain or keep. A virtue is no such thing. A virtue is the action by which one gains and keeps a value. A virtue is something you choose to do in order to be the kind of man you want to be. It's not an end result the way a value is; it's the cause of getting that value.

Wow! This is so obvious now, so how did I ever manage to put pride on the wrong side of the equation?!

“Pride is the commitment to achieve one's own moral perfection.” (OPAR, p. 303, emphasis mine) Commitment is an action; it's the starting point of the virtue. In other words, one has to choose to be virtuous. It doesn't come automatically. The essence of pride in particular is the choice to be morally perfect:

“A proud man struggles to achieve within himself the best possible spiritual state. This means a state of full virtue, whatever the effort and discipline it involves. In regard to morality, nothing less than perfection will do.” (OPAR)

This changes everything about my understanding of pride. I suddenly see that I have always been prideful, I just didn't know that it was the name of my commitment to moral values.

Thanks, Burgess and Steve. And thanks Leonard Peikoff. I feel like I just got an incredible Christmas present!

[Duane 0]

Self-esteem is the value one seeks to gain and keep and pride is the virtue that gains and keep it.  Pride is something you do now to make sure you have self-esteem in the future.

Thanks, Betsy. It looks like you were one step ahead of me.

[Free Capitalist 0]

Pride is a virtue. Of course it is. I could have told you that yesterday, since I've read OPAR just like everybody else. But that's not the way I was actually treating the concept. Instead, I was treating it as a value.

A value is something one acts to gain or keep. A virtue is no such thing. A virtue is the action by which one gains and keeps a value. A virtue is something you choose to do in order to be the kind of man you want to be. It's not an end result the way a value is; it's the cause of getting that value.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And yet pride can also be itself a value as well. Take, for example, someone who, when reading The Fountainhead and seeing Roark's pride in his creations, might say to himself, "I want to be like that too." We can act to gain or keep (i.e. value) a certain persistent state of mind (i.e. a virtue) which then helps us act to gain or keep another value (happiness). So pride and all of the virtues can themselves be values as well; they are virtues in respect to some other value, namely happiness. That's why the hierarchy of values is so important.

[Bold Standard 0]

Secondly, and more importantly, I get confused about the way overt happiness and pride come together. I notice that some people reserve their displays of happiness only for “special times” and remain almost dour like an unapproachable Sphinx the rest of the time. The effect resembles pride, but more of the regal Queen variety than the proud sculptor.

Reason tells me that pride and outward displays of happiness are not mutually exclusive, yet this type of person seems to act as if they are. Also, the happiest people I have known just didn't act anything like a Sphinx. I wonder if I'm missing something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This issue of the Sphinx sounds to me like an expression, not necessarily of pride, but rather of privacy. There are many situations in which an individual may don a mask to hide their inner emotion from others.

This may be an expression of pride-- for example, suppose there is a professional who wishes to display to his business associates only his serious, sober passion and commitment to his work and the task at hand (which are real for him) even though his dominant inward emotions at the time are pain over the recent death of a loved one, or some tragedy in his personal life that he does not disown, but at the same time is too proud, ie, too independent and mindful of his environment, what it is that he is communicating, and what he hopes to accomplish in his dealings with people, to involve others with inappropriately.

Or, it could be an expression of repression. This would be true if the reason the man didn't display his true emotional turmoil was that he was incapable of experiencing his inward emotion completely, even to himself.

It could also be an expression of poor communication skills. This would be true if the man knew what he felt, on an emotional level, but was unable to express it when he was alone with his wife or close friends, even though he desperately wanted to.

[Bold Standard 0]

I don't mean to imply that pain would ever be a virtuous person's dominant emotion on a fundamental level, but it might be experienced, temporarily, as a predominant emotional experience. Unhappiness should never become one's reference point to reality, but to be unhappy is not necessarily the result of immorality (especially if one maintains the will to act in the face of it).

even though his dominant inward emotions at the time are pain over the recent death of a loved one

←

[Duane 0]

The more I think about pride being a virtue (and not a value), the more certain I am that Ayn Rand was correct (which should come as no surprise to anyone). Here's why I think so:

When a man decides to think, we call that rationality. When he decides to think and act for himself, we call that independence. When he decides to be true to what he thinks, we call that integrity. When he decides to judge others and aims to be judged accordingly, we call that justice.

But what do we call a man's decision to mold himself into the shape of someone good, that is to say, when a man is convinced of the need to do right things because his life matters? What name do we have for that state of being absolutely certain that one cannot—will not!—live except by doing that which makes his life, and especially his happiness, possible? Unlike the previous convictions, this one arches over all the others, but it's a singular conviction nonetheless. It stands alone in the form of saying, “I will be good.”

We have a name for all the other convictions. Why not have a name for this one? Ayn Rand calls it pride.

Unfortunately, the word itself is not generally used this way. Ignoring the idea of hubris, which is a kind of petulance or presumptive arrogance, the term usually refers to a kind of positive feeling that a man experiences toward himself. Notice how my examples of the sculptor and the writer ← reflect this usage, but as Betsy pointed out, I was actually showing a man's self-esteem in these examples, not his pride as such.

A statement by Leonard Peikoff makes this distinction even more clear: “The rewards of the virtue of pride are all the values that a proper moral character makes possible. In particular, pride leads a man to the third of the 'supreme values': self esteem.” (OPAR, p. 305) In other words, pride is the virtue, self-esteem the reward.

Out of curiousity, does anyone know if Aristotle and/or other Greeks used the term in the same way? I'm just wondering if there are other examples of people using pride specifically to mean a virtue—that is, a willful conviction and not just a feeling.

[Duane 0]

Oops. I just noticed that I wrote "Thanks, Burgess and Steve" in a previous message ←. I meant to write Stephen.

For what it's worth, last night the hostess in a restaurant called out my name over the intercom as "Diane." I'll consider that justice.

[Stephen Speicher 0]

Out of curiousity, does anyone know if Aristotle and/or other Greeks used the term in the same way?

Aristotle held a similar view of pride, even though his overall view of ethics differs from Objectivism. For instance, Aristotle writes:

Now the proud man, since he deserves most, must be good in the highest degree; for the better man always deserves more, and the best man most. Therefore the truly proud man must be good. And greatness in every virtue would seem to be characteristic of a proud man.

[Free Capitalist 0]

Duane,

Why can't pride be both a virtue and a value, in different contexts?

Also in regard to your question about the Greeks, Stephen got to it before I did, but yeah Aristotle has a very notable section on pride as a virtue (it's one of his highest virtues, to say the very least).

As an addition to what Stephen had quoted, I can add this etymological link: the actual word Aristotle uses for that virtue is megalopsychia, which is often translated as pride, and perhaps can still be done so if the word is understood in its Objectivist context (a much nobler conception than the modern understanding of the word, and thus much closer to what Aristotle had in mind). You can see the meaning Aristotle was getting at from the literal translation of the word: "megalo-" -- greatest in degree or quality and "psychia" -- soul, i.e. greatness of soul in an total, encompassing, sense.

[Burgess Laughlin 0]

[...] the actual word Aristotle uses for that virtue is megalopsychia, which is often translated as pride, and perhaps can still be done so if the word is understood in its Objectivist context (a much nobler conception than the modern understanding of the word, and thus much closer to what Aristotle had in mind). You can see the meaning Aristotle was getting at from the literal translation of the word: "megalo-" -- greatest in degree or quality and  "psychia" -- soul, i.e. greatness of soul in an total, encompassing, sense.

←

Wouldn't a common translation of the Greek megalopsychia be the Anglicized-Latin term "magnanimity" to name the characteristic of the magnanimous man. (In Latin, the suffix -ous means "filled with.") "Magnanimity" comes from the Latin magnus ("great") and animus (spirit, soul). In Classical Latin, there is in fact a word magnanimitas which means "greatness of soul" -- probably directly translated from Greek.

I doubt that megalopsychia means the same thing as "pride" (moral ambition) in Objectivism. Doesn't megalopsychia mean "concerned with the big issues in life, such as philosophy -- not the tawdry mundane things"?

The passage that Stephen quoted suggests that a proud man is and must be virtuous -- not that pride is ambition in morality. In other words, there is an implication in that passage that (other) virtue is a means to the end, pride. Objectivism suggests the opposite: The virtue of pride (ambition in morality) leads to being virtuous overall. (In other words, in Objectivism, pride in oneself is the virtue of striving to be virtuous.)

[Free Capitalist 0]

Burgess, I didn't realize the Latin etymological link, so thank you for that. Still, even though the Latin term applies perfectly, I don't think we use the word "magnanimity" in English enough to have a very clear ethical connotation towards it; for example, for me it somehow has a connotation with charity, e.g. "a magnanimous businessman". Still, after clarifying the etymology of Aristotle's word in two languages I think his meaning now becomes clear, even if we don't have the right word for it in English.

As to your point that megalopsychia is the end result of possessing moral virtues, whereas Objectivism's pride is the origin of possessing those moral virtues, I wouldn't entirely agree. I would say that for Aristotle, megalopsychia is both a state of mind that arises from having all the virtues, and a moral ambitiousness that strives towards possessing that sort of great-souled all-encompassing state of mind. Aristotle says (all emphasis mine),

Now the man is thought to have megalopsychia who thinks himself worthy of great things, being worthy of them

[...]

The man who possesses megalopsychia, then, is an extreme in respect of the greatness of his claims

There I think it's clear that Aristotle is talking about potentiality, and about the virtue of megalopsychia being the origin of all the great things to come, which means that for him it's both the origin of the other virtues, and the end result of possessing them, i.e. "the crown of the virtues". Wouldn't you say that it's the same for Ayn Rand (both that it's the origin, and the crowning result)? John Galt is very much a proud man, and for him that results from possessing the virtues, not from merely having the initial moral ambitousness for achieving them.

[Duane 0]

Thank you all for this interesting discussion of etymology and for Aristotle's views on pride. I see now that at the very least, he had a more advanced sense of the meaning behind pride than merely confidence or hubris (a common theme in Greek poetry). While I do see how the quote from the Nicomachean Ethics could be saying that pride is the result of being good (as Burgess suggested), his words also leave open the possibility that he would have considered the act of striving to be good “in every virtue” to be an act of pride. Read: a virtue. This is unclear, especially based on such a short quotation, but tantalizing nonetheless.

I also see that Ayn Rand, in her characteristic manner, approached the idea with a sharp eye toward what men actually do, not just what they feel.

I am preparing a summary post in which I aim to show why this distinction between pride-as-virtue and pride-as-self-esteem is important.

[Duane 0]

John Galt is very much a proud man, and for him that results from possessing the virtues, not from merely having the initial moral [ambitiousness] for achieving them.

←

In other words, John Galt has self-esteem. I've already addressed that point.

The fact that the word pride is used almost exclusively in our culture (ignoring hubris) to describe the value, the end result, the self-esteem that comes from practicing virtue only confuses the issue at the heart of this discussion. Assuming Ayn Rand was correct about pride—and I believe she was, as usual—then this alternate use of the word pride should be treated as a homonym of sorts, at least for my purposes at this time.*

Granted, it may be one we can't ignore in day-to-day conversation. However, I am here interested, not just in various concepts or semantic issues, but in what actually exists in the real world. I'm looking for a fact, specifically a very special one, one that may mean a great deal to my life (which I will explain shortly).

In any case, if I adopt Ayn Rand's view of pride as a virtue and not a value, it changes even the way I see the statement, “John Galt is a proud man.” If that's not clear, kindly don't look to me to make it clear. I'm still learning about this, and that after having missed the point despite several careful readings of OPAR.

* Homonyms are words that are spelled or pronounced the same but have different meanings, though they generally don't include closely-related concepts such as mobile (able to move) and mobile (what the British call a cell phone). That's why I said homonym “of sorts”, because the two usages of pride are different but apparently related.

[Duane 0]

Earlier in this thread, I identified the fact that the concept pride is usually treated as a value (synonymous with self-esteem), whereas Ayn Rand treated it as a virtue (a purposeful act).

Here's why I think this distinction is so important:

When I started this thread, I treated pride as if it meant self-esteem. Whenever I thought about living by the virtue of pride, I necessarily took that to mean: “I should behave in a manner more consistent with a man of self-esteem.” In practice, this approach is wrong. It is wrong because a man can't proceed directly to the goal of liking himself more; he has to do something else to get there. But what exactly must he do? That is what a virtue is supposed to tell him.

In truth, I have always known that a man can't just go and get self-esteem. Yet my view of pride was inconsistent with that notion so that whenever I would think about being proud, I would have to go through a long, circuitous process of thinking about virtues in order to end up in (approximately) the right place. That all changed when, during this discussion, I suddenly came to know with sharp mental clarity that pride is the virtue of moral ambitiousness. I thought and thought and thought about this distinction until I experienced a kind of epiphany (an integration), after which pride no longer looked the same to me.

Now when I encounter the word pride, I think primarily of the ambition to do all of the other life-affirming virtues. When I read the phrase, “John Galt is a proud man”, I immediately think, “John Galt is a man who does virtuous things.” By contrast, I do not immediately think, “John Galt feels good about himself.” The idea of self-esteem becomes implicit in my understanding of pride, while the idea of acting on virtues becomes explicit, which is exactly what a useful virtue is supposed to do.

Understanding the “crown of all virtues” is no minor event, obviously, but it's especially important to me in my work right now. I am about to begin writing my next story, the most challenging one that I have ever attempted, with the most challenging protagonist by far. Understanding pride is going to make my job much easier, I am sure—which is why I started this thread in the first place, although I never expected to learn so much from it.

[Burgess Laughlin 0]

In liberal culture today, "self-esteem" can be a trap: "You should," liberal educators say, "like yourself because of who you are -- black, woman, short, and so forth -- that is, none of the things we choose to be, but are, simply as accidents of nature."

By contrast, Ayn Rand defines self-esteem as a value. It is, for each man, the "inviolate certainty that his mind is competent to think and his person is worthy of happiness, which means is worthy of living." ("Galt's Speech," For the New Intellectual, p. 156 [128 pb]).

Self-esteem is not, contrary to liberal educators, liking oneself. It is valuing oneself.

If I were a fiction writer, I could imagine a central character who has not in the past had self-esteem, but now he chooses it is a value. He looks forward to the day when he will like -- or better yet, love -- himself. The liking will come after he makes himself into the man he wants to be.