Chiropractic Treatment: Bunk or Legit?

[ewv 0]

It is more than relieving pain. It re-aligns bones whose misalignment causes the pain. But it can't address the underlying cause of the misalignment. A good GP will recommend a competent chiropractor for problems for which it is appropriate. If it can work, even if it takes repeated treatments for relapses, it it is preferable to serious surgery.

What does it mean for bones to be "misaligned" and what evidence is there that chiropractors re-align them?

I also just can't take chiropractic seriously because it is so fundamentally based in mysticism, and worse yet, they seek popularity by trying to inspire and exploit a backlash against traditional western medicine.

They take xrays and look at the curvature of your spine. Their methods re-establish it when its been lost due to injury/posture issues and that is visually perceptible.

Physical misalignment can also be felt by an experienced chiropractor, and often observed externally by the shape of your back, legs, etc. Misalignment means a mechanical misalignment. If the beams and studs in your house were misaligned badly enough they wouldn't carry the load properly and would produce stresses that would crack the walls and ceilings. If after years of poor posture or other abnormality, the structure of your body will likewise suffer. Realignment means mechanical manipulation to relieve abnormal stresses and loads, not a mystical 'alignment' of mysterious spirits like an astrological 'alignment'. If you encounter a chiropractor, an auto mechanic, a physicist, or anyone else who claims mystical 'alignments' cure colds and all matter of other ailments in a 'backlash' against western civilization, then don't have anything to do with him. That doesn't change the real benefits that patients routinely experience from competent chiropractors.

[RayK 0]

Physical misalignment can also be felt by an experienced chiropractor, and often observed externally by the shape of your back, legs, etc. Misalignment means a mechanical misalignment. If the beams and studs in your house were misaligned badly enough they wouldn't carry the load properly and would produce stresses that would crack the walls and ceilings. If after years of poor posture or other abnormality, the structure of your body will likewise suffer. Realignment means mechanical manipulation to relieve abnormal stresses and loads, not a mystical 'alignment' of mysterious spirits like an astrological 'alignment'. If you encounter a chiropractor, an auto mechanic, a physicist, or anyone else who claims mystical 'alignments' cure colds and all matter of other ailments in a 'backlash' against western civilization, then don't have anything to do with him. That doesn't change the real benefits that patients routinely experience from competent chiropractors.

Please define "physical misalignment" as I do not know what this means. A joint can be dislocated which would not require a chiropractor to know nor feel that. But to make sure that the joint is put back into place properly requires an x-ray (to see how it was dislocated) and probably some pain-killer to get the person to relax before putting the joint back in it's proper location.

A person can also "pop" or "crack" their own joints and cause relief from the pressure that sometimes builds up from gas bubbles (which can be seen using a fluoroscopy) in the joint. Once again there is no misalignment, if a misalignment is something different than a dislocation. A person can feel discomfort in their joints because joint fluid is being forced out of the joint which causes negative pressure, usually because of muscle tension. When the pressure falls below the solution pressure of gasses dissolved in joint fluid they come out of solution which is what usually causes the discomfort. So, when a person "pops" or "cracks" their joints they allow the joint fluid back into the joint as lubrication which allows the discomfort to stop, temporarily. All of this can usually be done without a chiropractor or some other so called special person.

[Claire 0]

Carlos, see Bob's reply above. Chirop. relieves his pain and that's all he cares about. You seem to be seeking some definitive answer. Maybe there isn't one and you just have to go and find out for yourself - or not go. Some people benefit and some don't. The one true answer won't be out there, Carlos. See for yourself. Find out and make a determination for yourself. I guess I'm asking you to think for yourself. Other people can't tell you how chirop. wil work for you.

[RayK 0]

Carlos, see Bob's reply above. Chirop. relieves his pain and that's all he cares about. You seem to be seeking some definitive answer. Maybe there isn't one and you just have to go and find out for yourself - or not go. Some people benefit and some don't. The one true answer won't be out there, Carlos. See for yourself. Find out and make a determination for yourself. I guess I'm asking you to think for yourself. Other people can't tell you how chirop. wil work for you.

Claire, no one has stated that someone cannot receive a benefit from a chiropractor or a massage therapist or some other person that applies force/pressure to the musculoskeletal system. What is being disputed is what is the cause of the relief and whether or not chiropractors are legit in their claims. So, if I go by what seems to be your and Bob's standard then I should just take a shot of whiskey as it relieves my pain also and who cares why or how beyond that. Well, if that is your standard then I must disagree with your assessement as one true answer will be out there, but one can only find it by being objective.

[Claire 0]

Okay, Ray. As to the shot of whiskey - if I were in pain and had no other remedy, I might take it. As it happens, it hate whiskey, so I'm not really sure. Maybe there's something else I can do for the pain. Now, if I were an alcoholic, not on your life. And that's only me. Other people would have a different take. Let's say your 18, in pain, and want to take that shot. But you promised your parents you wouldn't drink. Do you endure needless pain and do you keep your promise? Ray, how do you make one answer fit all?

[Bob Kolker 0]

Carlos, see Bob's reply above. Chirop. relieves his pain and that's all he cares about. You seem to be seeking some definitive answer. Maybe there isn't one and you just have to go and find out for yourself - or not go. Some people benefit and some don't. The one true answer won't be out there, Carlos. See for yourself. Find out and make a determination for yourself. I guess I'm asking you to think for yourself. Other people can't tell you how chirop. wil work for you.

Claire, no one has stated that someone cannot receive a benefit from a chiropractor or a massage therapist or some other person that applies force/pressure to the musculoskeletal system. What is being disputed is what is the cause of the relief and whether or not chiropractors are legit in their claims. So, if I go by what seems to be your and Bob's standard then I should just take a shot of whiskey as it relieves my pain also and who cares why or how beyond that. Well, if that is your standard then I must disagree with your assessement as one true answer will be out there, but one can only find it by being objective.

The cause of the pain (usually sciatica) is the pressure that a misaligned lumbar vertabrea puts on the sciatic nerve. Straighten things out, get rid of the pinch and the pain either goes away or it is diminished. I don't see why this is so complicated to understand.

If someone were pinching your finger with a pair of pliers (that would hurt!) and he stopped doing it, the pain would diminish. Spinal nerve pinch works exactly the same way. Get rid of the pinch, get rid of the pain.

I have used chiropractors for over 20 years and I have never failed to get relief from the pain. My last session was about five years ago. He did a good job. I had my back x-rayed by a D.O. and he said the alignment was good. Bingo! Job done! I got my money's worth.

Bob Kolker

[Mercury 0]

It seems like a skilled and knowledgeable manipulation of the bones and nerves can really help you feel better and heal. Too bad there don't seem to be real doctors who do this -- other than massage therapists.

I'm a complete layman on this topic, but I know there are M.D.'s who are osteopaths. In fact, I used to see one in Ohio.

What is the difference between an osteopath and a chiropractor? I don't know.

[RayK 0]

Okay, Ray. As to the shot of whiskey - if I were in pain and had no other remedy, I might take it. As it happens, it hate whiskey, so I'm not really sure. Maybe there's something else I can do for the pain. Now, if I were an alcoholic, not on your life. And that's only me. Other people would have a different take. Let's say your 18, in pain, and want to take that shot. But you promised your parents you wouldn't drink. Do you endure needless pain and do you keep your promise? Ray, how do you make one answer fit all?

Claire, it seems you are attempting to change the context of the original question from scientific to ethical. Chiropractors claim that they have scientific evidence to back their claims, but there is almost no evidence to support their claims and the evidence that does exist is quite contradictory or what most people would call psuedo-scientific. But your lastest questions from above are of an ethical context when you ask what choice would someone make. Well, which answer do you want answered. Scientific facts are the same no matter what chiropractic office someone is or is not sitting in. But ethical choices must be made in accordance to one's choosen valuing system in the context of the full situation.

I seems you are new to Objectivism and if so I would offer that you read Ayn Rand's work The Virtue of Selfishness which might help in getting an understanding of Objectivist ethics.

[RayK 0]

Carlos, see Bob's reply above. Chirop. relieves his pain and that's all he cares about. You seem to be seeking some definitive answer. Maybe there isn't one and you just have to go and find out for yourself - or not go. Some people benefit and some don't. The one true answer won't be out there, Carlos. See for yourself. Find out and make a determination for yourself. I guess I'm asking you to think for yourself. Other people can't tell you how chirop. wil work for you.

Claire, no one has stated that someone cannot receive a benefit from a chiropractor or a massage therapist or some other person that applies force/pressure to the musculoskeletal system. What is being disputed is what is the cause of the relief and whether or not chiropractors are legit in their claims. So, if I go by what seems to be your and Bob's standard then I should just take a shot of whiskey as it relieves my pain also and who cares why or how beyond that. Well, if that is your standard then I must disagree with your assessement as one true answer will be out there, but one can only find it by being objective.

The cause of the pain (usually sciatica) is the pressure that a misaligned lumbar vertabrea puts on the sciatic nerve. Straighten things out, get rid of the pinch and the pain either goes away or it is diminished. I don't see why this is so complicated to understand.

If someone were pinching your finger with a pair of pliers (that would hurt!) and he stopped doing it, the pain would diminish. Spinal nerve pinch works exactly the same way. Get rid of the pinch, get rid of the pain.

I have used chiropractors for over 20 years and I have never failed to get relief from the pain. My last session was about five years ago. He did a good job. I had my back x-rayed by a D.O. and he said the alignment was good. Bingo! Job done! I got my money's worth.

Bob Kolker

Wrong, the cause of most cases of sciatica or sciatic nerve pain are never identified. But there are many physical reasons why there can be pain of the sciatic nerve beyond compression such as back strain which can cause spasms in the muscles of the lower back which puts pressure on the sciatic nerve. To add to that most cases of sciatica heal themselves within a few weeks without seeing anyone or doing anything special beyond allowing the body to heal itself.

[ewv 0]

Carlos, see Bob's reply above. Chirop. relieves his pain and that's all he cares about. You seem to be seeking some definitive answer. Maybe there isn't one and you just have to go and find out for yourself - or not go. Some people benefit and some don't. The one true answer won't be out there, Carlos. See for yourself. Find out and make a determination for yourself. I guess I'm asking you to think for yourself. Other people can't tell you how chirop. wil work for you.

Claire, no one has stated that someone cannot receive a benefit from a chiropractor or a massage therapist or some other person that applies force/pressure to the musculoskeletal system. What is being disputed is what is the cause of the relief and whether or not chiropractors are legit in their claims. So, if I go by what seems to be your and Bob's standard then I should just take a shot of whiskey as it relieves my pain also and who cares why or how beyond that. Well, if that is your standard then I must disagree with your assessement as one true answer will be out there, but one can only find it by being objective.

The cause of the pain (usually sciatica) is the pressure that a misaligned lumbar vertabrea puts on the sciatic nerve. Straighten things out, get rid of the pinch and the pain either goes away or it is diminished. I don't see why this is so complicated to understand.

If someone were pinching your finger with a pair of pliers (that would hurt!) and he stopped doing it, the pain would diminish. Spinal nerve pinch works exactly the same way. Get rid of the pinch, get rid of the pain.

I have used chiropractors for over 20 years and I have never failed to get relief from the pain. My last session was about five years ago. He did a good job. I had my back x-rayed by a D.O. and he said the alignment was good. Bingo! Job done! I got my money's worth.

Obviously there is more to what chiropractors diagnose and do than dealing with crude dislocations, "popping joints", and pretending to fix problems that "go away on their own". They have the skill to make a difference, as demonstrated by experience. GPs refer patients to them, and insurance companies pay for it because it is a legitimate form of medical care. This has nothing to do with mysticism or unethical claims by charlatans, which exists in any profession. The patients helped are very grateful and don't much care what anyone else who doesn't know thinks of it (which I think explains Claire's apparent impatience). Bob and others have been helped by chiropractors, they objectively observe the difference and its cause, and they should not be denounced for the equivalent of drinking whiskey to avoid pain for a few hours. This doesn't mean that a chiropractor should be consulted out of the blue the way you would routinely go to a dentist for a toothache. Certain kinds of problems can be alleviated following an expert referral by a GP who knows what he is doing and knows what is reasonable to try.

[RayK 0]

Obviously there is more to what chiropractors diagnose and do than dealing with crude dislocations, "popping joints", and pretending to fix problems that "go away on their own". They have the skill to make a difference, as demonstrated by experience. GPs refer patients to them, and insurance companies pay for it because it is a legitimate form of medical care. This has nothing to do with mysticism or unethical claims by charlatans, which exists in any profession. The patients helped are very grateful and don't much care what anyone else who doesn't know thinks of it (which I think explains Claire's apparent impatience). Bob and others have been helped by chiropractors, they objectively observe the difference and its cause, and they should not be denounced for the equivalent of drinking whiskey to avoid pain for a few hours. This doesn't mean that a chiropractor should be consulted out of the blue the way you would routinely go to a dentist for a toothache. Certain kinds of problems can be alleviated following an expert referral by a GP who knows what he is doing and knows what is reasonable to try.

I disagree as anecdotes are not science.

[ewv 0]

Obviously there is more to what chiropractors diagnose and do than dealing with crude dislocations, "popping joints", and pretending to fix problems that "go away on their own". They have the skill to make a difference, as demonstrated by experience. GPs refer patients to them, and insurance companies pay for it because it is a legitimate form of medical care. This has nothing to do with mysticism or unethical claims by charlatans, which exists in any profession. The patients helped are very grateful and don't much care what anyone else who doesn't know thinks of it (which I think explains Claire's apparent impatience). Bob and others have been helped by chiropractors, they objectively observe the difference and its cause, and they should not be denounced for the equivalent of drinking whiskey to avoid pain for a few hours. This doesn't mean that a chiropractor should be consulted out of the blue the way you would routinely go to a dentist for a toothache. Certain kinds of problems can be alleviated following an expert referral by a GP who knows what he is doing and knows what is reasonable to try.

I disagree as anecdotes are not science.

The established practices being discussed here are far beyond anecdotes. Competent GPs and medical insurance companies don't recommend and endorse mysticism based on anecdotes.

[RayK 0]

Obviously there is more to what chiropractors diagnose and do than dealing with crude dislocations, "popping joints", and pretending to fix problems that "go away on their own". They have the skill to make a difference, as demonstrated by experience. GPs refer patients to them, and insurance companies pay for it because it is a legitimate form of medical care. This has nothing to do with mysticism or unethical claims by charlatans, which exists in any profession. The patients helped are very grateful and don't much care what anyone else who doesn't know thinks of it (which I think explains Claire's apparent impatience). Bob and others have been helped by chiropractors, they objectively observe the difference and its cause, and they should not be denounced for the equivalent of drinking whiskey to avoid pain for a few hours. This doesn't mean that a chiropractor should be consulted out of the blue the way you would routinely go to a dentist for a toothache. Certain kinds of problems can be alleviated following an expert referral by a GP who knows what he is doing and knows what is reasonable to try.

I disagree as anecdotes are not science.

The established practices being discussed here are far beyond anecdotes. Competent GPs and medical insurance companies don't recommend and endorse mysticism based on anecdotes.

Oh yes they do, medical insurance companies are just like any other company, fulfilling the needs and demands of their customers no matter how irrational.

[RayK 0]

For those that do not know or do not remember, let us discuss the spine, the spinal cord and injuries to these two parts of the body.

The spine is a column of bones and cartilage that extends from the base of the skull to the pelvis which also encloses and protects the spinal cord and supports the trunk and head. The spine is made up of 33 mostly cylindrical bones called vertebrae. Each of the adjacent vertebrae are connected by a joint which is called a facet joint. The facet joint stabilizes and allows movement within the spinal column. Between each pair of vertebrae are disk made of fibrous cartilage with a jelly like substance within it's core (nucleus pulposus) which is called an intervertebral disk. The intervertebral disks acts like a cushion when a person is doing certain activities such as running or jumping. The vertebrae are bound together by two long and thick ligaments which run the full length of the spine and by smaller ligaments between each vertebrae. Several groups of muscles connect to the vertebrae which control movement of the spine while also helping to support the spine.

The spinal cord is a cylinder of nerve tissue about 18 inches long and about the diameter of one's finger which runs down the central canal of the spine. The spine is usually considered as a downward extension of the brain and both are considered to be parts of the central nervous system. The core of the spinal cord is a region with a butterfly-shaped cross section called the gray matter. The gray matter contains the cell bodies of neurons (nerve cells) along with the glial (supporting) cells. Some of the nerve cells ar motor neurons whose axons (long projecting fibers) pass out of the the spincal cord in bundles with the spinal nerves and extend to glands or muscles in the trunk or limbs. Other nerves are called interneurons (nerve cells contained entirely within the central nervous system) which act to convey messages between other neurons. The gray matter also has axons of sensory neurons which have their cells bodies outside the spinal cord. The sensory neurons axons connect with the neurons or interneurons. Surronding the gray matter are areas of white matter which consist of bundles of nerve cell axons running lengthwise through the cord.

The spinal cord sprouts two nerve bundles at regular intervals on each side which are called the spinal nerve roots. These spinal nerve roots contain the fibers of the motor and sensory nerve cells. They also combine to form the spinal nerves which emerge from thh spine and are the communication cables between the spinal cord and all regions of the trunk and limbs.

The whole spinal cord is bathed in cerebrospinal fluid and surrounded bya protective sheath which is a continuation of the meninges that protects the brain.

The spinal cord functions like a highway carrying sensory information upward toward the brain (ascending tracts) or motor signals passing downward (descending tracts). The spinal cord can also handle some of the sensory information itself and provide motor responses without recourse to the brain such as knee jerking reflex actions.

Injury to the spinal cord is usually caused by trauma to the spine which can lead to paralysis or loss of sensation which are both usually permanent because the nerve cells and fibers within the cord do not regenerate. The cause of injury is usually from one of three types of force, compression, hinging or shearing. During compression (which is what seems to be under discussion) damage to the shock absorging disk of cartilage between two vertebrae can sometimes cause pressure on a spinal nerve root which causes pain, loss of sensation or even paralysis.

Now, let us re-examine the chiropractors terminology and what they state happens during a spinal injury (subluxation) and what they think they can do to treat it.

Chiroprators usually state that a subluxation (which defined by them as a bone or joint out of place) causes a pinched nerve. Well, this is an incorrect assessement of what actually happens. As I explained above, nerve bundles come out of the spinal column, but the nerve bundles are not actually hard material. The nerve bundles are actually very flimsy material that require blood flow/nourishment to stay alive. If the compression from an injury does not automatically kill the nerve then the lack of blood flow/nourishment will. When an injury is traumatic enough to shear the nerve or cut off the blood flow to the nerve a chiropractor will not be able to do a thing to help a person recuperate.

Man can have minor injuries that heal themselves all the time such as a sprained ankle or strained muscles. These types of injuries and more do not require any special treatment besides time and relaxation to heal on their own. Anything that is as serious as a "pinched nerve" wil require much more than someone that claims that they can heal a "pinched nerve" and other sicknesses by bone and muscle manipulation within the spine.

[ewv 0]

For those that do not know or do not remember, let us discuss the spine, the spinal cord and injuries to these two parts of the body...

Man can have minor injuries that heal themselves all the time such as a sprained ankle or strained muscles. These types of injuries and more do not require any special treatment besides time and relaxation to heal on their own. Anything that is as serious as a "pinched nerve" wil require much more than someone that claims that they can heal a "pinched nerve" and other sicknesses by bone and muscle manipulation within the spine.

Chiropractors do not claim to "heal" pinched nerves. They can in many circumstances alleviate stresses that remove all or most of the pain caused by them. They also achieve results that do not occur by the body "healing itself". This is all established fact and no amount of theoretical discourse erases that, any more than arguments about why bumble bees can't fly don't stop them from flying. Those of use who know someone who has been helped or who have been helped personally or are not impressed with arguments about why it couldn't have happened. Neither are doctors and insurance companies who recognize from experience that chiropractory is a legitimate and useful form of medical care under the proper circumstances. Insistence that it is all irrational mysticism doesn't change that.

[RayK 0]

For those that do not know or do not remember, let us discuss the spine, the spinal cord and injuries to these two parts of the body...

Man can have minor injuries that heal themselves all the time such as a sprained ankle or strained muscles. These types of injuries and more do not require any special treatment besides time and relaxation to heal on their own. Anything that is as serious as a "pinched nerve" wil require much more than someone that claims that they can heal a "pinched nerve" and other sicknesses by bone and muscle manipulation within the spine.

Chiropractors do not claim to "heal" pinched nerves. They can in many circumstances alleviate stresses that remove all or most of the pain caused by them. They also achieve results that do not occur by the body "healing itself". This is all established fact and no amount of theoretical discourse erases that, any more than arguments about why bumble bees can't fly don't stop them from flying. Those of use who know someone who has been helped or who have been helped personally or are not impressed with arguments about why it couldn't have happened. Neither are doctors and insurance companies who recognize from experience that chiropractory is a legitimate and useful form of medical care under the proper circumstances. Insistence that it is all irrational mysticism doesn't change that.

Yes chiroprators do claim to heal "pinched nerves" and Bob even stated so himself. Many ordinary people can alleviate stress by giving a back rub, a neck massage or by using many other relaxing techniques, but those people most likely do not make unsubstantiated claims. Claims which you have NOT brought any facts of how the human body, the spine nor the spinal cord actually function. But it seems you just expect me to believe in your statements like an arbitrary judge giving their final verdict, I must disagree. So, for every person that you can claim that has had a benefit I am sure I know peope that can claim the opposite. I would think that to be objective one must attempt to dig further and find the truth. Well, that is exactly what I have done, I dug further to find the truth. And what I wrote in my last post is established fact on how the body parts under discussion function, no anecdotes included.

[ewv 0]

Chiropractors do not claim to "heal" pinched nerves. They can in many circumstances alleviate stresses that remove all or most of the pain caused by them. They also achieve results that do not occur by the body "healing itself". This is all established fact and no amount of theoretical discourse erases that, any more than arguments about why bumble bees can't fly don't stop them from flying. Those of use who know someone who has been helped or who have been helped personally or are not impressed with arguments about why it couldn't have happened. Neither are doctors and insurance companies who recognize from experience that chiropractory is a legitimate and useful form of medical care under the proper circumstances. Insistence that it is all irrational mysticism doesn't change that.

Yes chiroprators do claim to heal "pinched nerves" and Bob even stated so himself. Many ordinary people can alleviate stress by giving a back rub, a neck massage or by using many other relaxing techniques, but those people most likely do not make unsubstantiated claims. Claims which you have NOT brought any facts of how the human body, the spine nor the spinal cord actually function. But it seems you just expect me to believe in your statements like an arbitrary judge giving their final verdict, I must disagree. So, for every person that you can claim that has had a benefit I am sure I know peope that can claim the opposite. I would think that to be objective one must attempt to dig further and find the truth. Well, that is exactly what I have done, I dug further to find the truth. And what I wrote in my last post is established fact on how the body parts under discussion function, no anecdotes included.

This is what Bob wrote:

The cause of the pain (usually sciatica) is the pressure that a misaligned lumbar vertabrea puts on the sciatic nerve. Straighten things out, get rid of the pinch and the pain either goes away or it is diminished. I don't see why this is so complicated to understand.

If someone were pinching your finger with a pair of pliers (that would hurt!) and he stopped doing it, the pain would diminish. Spinal nerve pinch works exactly the same way. Get rid of the pinch, get rid of the pain.

I have used chiropractors for over 20 years and I have never failed to get relief from the pain. My last session was about five years ago. He did a good job. I had my back x-rayed by a D.O. and he said the alignment was good. Bingo! Job done! I got my money's worth.

He did not say that it "healed" the cause of the problem. He has had to return for periodic repeat treatments because the underlying cause is still there. The relief he and others have achieved has avoided the necessity for complicated and potentially dangerous surgery, if that is possible at all. Bob is one of a very large number of people who have been helped this way. These are not "anecdotes"; they are observable facts. Lengthy theoretical arguments about why that must be impossible do not refute them, and neither does dismissal as "mysticism", "popping joints", and mere "backrubs". Facts are facts. The proper scientific approach is not dismissive rationalism denying them, but an investigation of under what circumstances it works and why, and under what circumstances it in principle does not work. Meanwhile, those who have experienced the benefits can only shake their heads in disbelief at rationalistic dismissals, in the name of science, which deny that what happened to their great benefit could possibly have happened.

[RayK 0]

Chiropractors do not claim to "heal" pinched nerves. They can in many circumstances alleviate stresses that remove all or most of the pain caused by them. They also achieve results that do not occur by the body "healing itself". This is all established fact and no amount of theoretical discourse erases that, any more than arguments about why bumble bees can't fly don't stop them from flying. Those of use who know someone who has been helped or who have been helped personally or are not impressed with arguments about why it couldn't have happened. Neither are doctors and insurance companies who recognize from experience that chiropractory is a legitimate and useful form of medical care under the proper circumstances. Insistence that it is all irrational mysticism doesn't change that.

Yes chiroprators do claim to heal "pinched nerves" and Bob even stated so himself. Many ordinary people can alleviate stress by giving a back rub, a neck massage or by using many other relaxing techniques, but those people most likely do not make unsubstantiated claims. Claims which you have NOT brought any facts of how the human body, the spine nor the spinal cord actually function. But it seems you just expect me to believe in your statements like an arbitrary judge giving their final verdict, I must disagree. So, for every person that you can claim that has had a benefit I am sure I know peope that can claim the opposite. I would think that to be objective one must attempt to dig further and find the truth. Well, that is exactly what I have done, I dug further to find the truth. And what I wrote in my last post is established fact on how the body parts under discussion function, no anecdotes included.

This is what Bob wrote:

The cause of the pain (usually sciatica) is the pressure that a misaligned lumbar vertabrea puts on the sciatic nerve. Straighten things out, get rid of the pinch and the pain either goes away or it is diminished. I don't see why this is so complicated to understand.

If someone were pinching your finger with a pair of pliers (that would hurt!) and he stopped doing it, the pain would diminish. Spinal nerve pinch works exactly the same way. Get rid of the pinch, get rid of the pain.

I have used chiropractors for over 20 years and I have never failed to get relief from the pain. My last session was about five years ago. He did a good job. I had my back x-rayed by a D.O. and he said the alignment was good. Bingo! Job done! I got my money's worth.

He did not say that it "healed" the cause of the problem. He has had to return for periodic repeat treatments because the underlying cause is still there. The relief he and others have achieved has avoided the necessity for complicated and potentially dangerous surgery, if that is possible at all. Bob is one of a very large number of people who have been helped this way. These are not "anecdotes"; they are observable facts. Lengthy theoretical arguments about why that must be impossible do not refute them, and neither does dismissal as "mysticism", "popping joints", and mere "backrubs". Facts are facts. The proper scientific approach is not dismissive rationalism denying them, but an investigation of under what circumstances it works and why, and under what circumstances it in principle does not work. Meanwhile, those who have experienced the benefits can only shake their heads in disbelief at rationalistic dismissals, in the name of science, which deny that what happened to their great benefit could possibly have happened.

I know what Bob wrote as I read it; "...Spinal nerve pinch works exactly the same way. Get rid of the pinch, get rid of the pain." If this is not stating that a chiropractor can cure a pinched nerve than I do not know what he is talking about.

You keep stating that people have been helped, how and in what way? Until you can answer those questions you are bringing nothing except anecdotes. So, what is it that you think a chiropractor does to your body that helps you? What is it that you think they are manipulating that can have any real effect? And please use medical terminology so that someone can attempt to verify your claims aginst what is known of the human body, the spinal column and the spinal cord.

And where do you get the idea that what I mention is theoretical? I must state once again that you bring no facts to support your claim that what I stated are not facts of exactly how the body works. Finally, I have given you a few reasons of what really happens and that no person calling themselves a chriopractor is needed to achieve what you state. But, believe what you want as reality will be the final judge.

[RayK 0]

Facts are facts.

You are correct, facts are facts, so let us look at some facts of why someone might feel better after seeing a chiropractor or any doctor for that matter.

Almost every adult has heard of the "power of placebos" and what a person's belief system can accomplish. Well, the placebo effect is known to have a complex interaction between the brain and the endocrine system. When someone is injured they usually feel pain and fear. When a person feels pain and fear they cause a reaction in the brain to gear the body up for an external threat which usually stops the bodies own healing process. Hormones are released into the bloodstream that increase respiration, blood pressure along with the heart rate. These actions have been shown to impede recovery not help speed it up. A good doctor of any sort will notice this and get their patient to relax.

Pain in the body causes the release of prostaglandins which are released by the white blood cells at the site of inflammation. A doctor can give aspirin/pain killer to their patient which will cause a blocking of the prostagladins. But a doctor can also give a placebo which has been shown to fool the person/brain that the the pain will be subsiding and then the person's endocrine system releases endorphins/opiate proteins. The release of the endorphins does not cause a blocking of the production of prostaglandins, instead it blocks the effect of prostaglandins. The effect of the placebo is that a person no longer feels the pain, but the injury is still there. But now that a person is relieved of the stress caused from their injury their body can begin it's own healing process which was put off during the external threat.

[ewv 0]

Facts are facts.

You are correct, facts are facts, so let us look at some facts of why someone might feel better after seeing a chiropractor or any doctor for that matter.

Almost every adult has heard of the "power of placebos" and what a person's belief system can accomplish...

The facts I referred to are the observable history of the benefits that many people have derived from chiropractors in the proper circumstances and which you continue to deny in favor of one strained rationalization after another for why "bumble bees can't fly". The latest version of this, that it's all imagined because of "placebos", requires no further comment. Millions of people will continue to benefit, as Bob and others here have experienced, doctors will continue to recommend that it be tried where appropriate, and both patients and insurance companies will continue to pay for the demonstrable benefits they physically experience directly and which are physically understandable. None of these people will care in the least that there are those out there who insist that none of this can possibly be happening -- not even enough to be insulted by the baseless denunciations of irrationalism, mysticism and dishonesty against them. At some point one must simply go about his life achieving values while shrugging off and ignoring those who deny that any of it is happening.

[RayK 0]

Facts are facts.

You are correct, facts are facts, so let us look at some facts of why someone might feel better after seeing a chiropractor or any doctor for that matter.

Almost every adult has heard of the "power of placebos" and what a person's belief system can accomplish...

The facts I referred to are the observable history of the benefits that many people have derived from chiropractors in the proper circumstances and which you continue to deny in favor of one strained rationalization after another for why "bumble bees can't fly". The latest version of this, that it's all imagined because of "placebos", requires no further comment. Millions of people will continue to benefit, as Bob and others here have experienced, doctors will continue to recommend that it be tried where appropriate, and both patients and insurance companies will continue to pay for the demonstrable benefits they physically experience directly and which are physically understandable. None of these people will care in the least that there are those out there who insist that none of this can possibly be happening -- not even enough to be insulted by the baseless denunciations of irrationalism, mysticism and dishonesty against them. At some point one must simply go about his life achieving values while shrugging off and ignoring those who deny that any of it is happening.

And the facts I referred to are how the body actually works, which you attempt to keep denying as the real cause of a person's healing. Billions of people think that sacrifice is a virtue also and go about their lifes trying to sacrifice as much as they can while somehow thinking they are achieveing happiness. Well, just like the people you mentioned that go to chiroprators the self sacrificers are wrong also. But, you can think/believe what ever you want as I do know the truth and do not waste time nor money for services sold by charlatans (mostly) when my body (and most other peoples bodies) can heal themselves.

And you still did not bring any scientific/medical facts, so I think our discussion is done.

[ewv 0]

Facts are facts.

You are correct, facts are facts, so let us look at some facts of why someone might feel better after seeing a chiropractor or any doctor for that matter.

Almost every adult has heard of the "power of placebos" and what a person's belief system can accomplish...

The facts I referred to are the observable history of the benefits that many people have derived from chiropractors in the proper circumstances and which you continue to deny in favor of one strained rationalization after another for why "bumble bees can't fly". The latest version of this, that it's all imagined because of "placebos", requires no further comment. Millions of people will continue to benefit, as Bob and others here have experienced, doctors will continue to recommend that it be tried where appropriate, and both patients and insurance companies will continue to pay for the demonstrable benefits they physically experience directly and which are physically understandable. None of these people will care in the least that there are those out there who insist that none of this can possibly be happening -- not even enough to be insulted by the baseless denunciations of irrationalism, mysticism and dishonesty against them. At some point one must simply go about his life achieving values while shrugging off and ignoring those who deny that any of it is happening.

And the facts I referred to are how the body actually works, which you attempt to keep denying as the real cause of a person's healing.

Chiropractors do not "heal", as been pointed out many times. This is a strawman, and I do not "deny real causes". The attempt to dismiss the real effects of chiropractors by how you think the body "has" to act is an evasion of observable facts that are well understood in terms of simple physical causes. Bumblebees do fly, despite "explanations" for why they can't.

Billions of people think that sacrifice is a virtue also and go about their lifes trying to sacrifice as much as they can while somehow thinking they are achieveing happiness. Well, just like the people you mentioned that go to chiroprators the self sacrificers are wrong also. But, you can think/believe what ever you want as I do know the truth and do not waste time nor money for services sold by charlatans (mostly) when my body (and most other peoples bodies) can heal themselves.

Scientologists and Christian Scientitsts dogmatically make the same errors in their rejection of doctors and modern medical techniques; they also claim to "know the truth" while ignoring the reality of medical experience. But the facts come first. When "explanations" contradict them, the explanations -- along with the false analogies -- are to be rejected, not the observable facts.

And you still did not bring any scientific/medical facts, so I think our discussion is done.

This is patently false. Discussion is not possible when the observed facts are disregarded and "explained away" as not possible to occur because of something called "truth" apart from correspondence to reality.

[RayK 0]

Facts are facts.

You are correct, facts are facts, so let us look at some facts of why someone might feel better after seeing a chiropractor or any doctor for that matter.

Almost every adult has heard of the "power of placebos" and what a person's belief system can accomplish...

The facts I referred to are the observable history of the benefits that many people have derived from chiropractors in the proper circumstances and which you continue to deny in favor of one strained rationalization after another for why "bumble bees can't fly". The latest version of this, that it's all imagined because of "placebos", requires no further comment. Millions of people will continue to benefit, as Bob and others here have experienced, doctors will continue to recommend that it be tried where appropriate, and both patients and insurance companies will continue to pay for the demonstrable benefits they physically experience directly and which are physically understandable. None of these people will care in the least that there are those out there who insist that none of this can possibly be happening -- not even enough to be insulted by the baseless denunciations of irrationalism, mysticism and dishonesty against them. At some point one must simply go about his life achieving values while shrugging off and ignoring those who deny that any of it is happening.

And the facts I referred to are how the body actually works, which you attempt to keep denying as the real cause of a person's healing.

Chiropractors do not "heal", as been pointed out many times. This is a strawman, and I do not "deny real causes". The attempt to dismiss the real effects of chiropractors by how you think the body "has" to act is an evasion of observable facts that are well understood in terms of simple physical causes. Bumblebees do fly, despite "explanations" for why they can't.

Billions of people think that sacrifice is a virtue also and go about their lifes trying to sacrifice as much as they can while somehow thinking they are achieveing happiness. Well, just like the people you mentioned that go to chiroprators the self sacrificers are wrong also. But, you can think/believe what ever you want as I do know the truth and do not waste time nor money for services sold by charlatans (mostly) when my body (and most other peoples bodies) can heal themselves.

Scientologists and Christian Scientitsts dogmatically make the same errors in their rejection of doctors and modern medical techniques; they also claim to "know the truth" while ignoring the reality of medical experience. But the facts come first. When "explanations" contradict them, the explanations -- along with the false analogies -- are to be rejected, not the observable facts.

And you still did not bring any scientific/medical facts, so I think our discussion is done.

This is patently false. Discussion is not possible when the observed facts are disregarded and "explained away" as not possible to occur because of something called "truth" apart from correspondence to reality.

Ewv, you are the one that keeps discrading the facts of reality and science. I have never stated that a person does not sometimes feel better after going to a chiropracotor or any type of doctor. What I have been stating is that the cause is not what people think. And if chiropractors do not "heal" then what do they do?

"Since an emotion is experienced as an immediate primary, but is, in fact, a complex, derivative sum, it permits men to practice one of the ugliest of psychological phenomena: rationalization. Rationalization is a cover-up, a process of providing one’s emotions with a false identity, of giving them spurious explanations and justifications —in order to hide one’s motives, not just from others, but primarily from oneself. The price of rationalizing is the hampering, the distortion and, ultimately, the destruction of one’s cognitive faculty. Rationalization is a process not of perceiving reality, but of attempting to make reality fit one’s emotions." [Ayn Rand, “Philosophical Detection,” Philosophy: Who Needs It, 18]

Now, who is the person that is claiming a feeling "we feel better and do not care how it works", and who is the person that is actually searching out the truth? So, who is the rationalist? Well, I guarantee you that it is not me.

[B. Royce 0]

Facts are facts.

You are correct, facts are facts, so let us look at some facts of why someone might feel better after seeing a chiropractor or any doctor for that matter.

Almost every adult has heard of the "power of placebos" and what a person's belief system can accomplish. Well, the placebo effect is known to have a complex interaction between the brain and the endocrine system. When someone is injured they usually feel pain and fear. When a person feels pain and fear they cause a reaction in the brain to gear the body up for an external threat which usually stops the bodies own healing process. Hormones are released into the bloodstream that increase respiration, blood pressure along with the heart rate. These actions have been shown to impede recovery not help speed it up. A good doctor of any sort will notice this and get their patient to relax.

Pain in the body causes the release of prostaglandins which are released by the white blood cells at the site of inflammation. A doctor can give aspirin/pain killer to their patient which will cause a blocking of the prostagladins. But a doctor can also give a placebo which has been shown to fool the person/brain that the the pain will be subsiding and then the person's endocrine system releases endorphins/opiate proteins. The release of the endorphins does not cause a blocking of the production of prostaglandins, instead it blocks the effect of prostaglandins. The effect of the placebo is that a person no longer feels the pain, but the injury is still there. But now that a person is relieved of the stress caused from their injury their body can begin it's own healing process which was put off during the external threat.

I know people who go to chiropractors every few weeks (or sometimes longer) for relief of joint pain. They get the relief and feel better for a few weeks or months. Then the pain starts building again until it reaches a point where it's too bothersome, and the person goes back to the chiropractor. They do not feel any fear, and placebos have nothing to do with making them feel better.

[Betsy Speicher 0]

I'm not surprised that chiropractors who do the same things as physical therapists benefit their patients for exactly the same reasons. Massage, exercises, etc. can help back pain no matter who does it.

While chiropractic theory is nonsense, I don't doubt that many chiropractors are doing the right thing for their patients -- but for the wrong reasons.