Computer glitch for Daylight-Saving time this year?

[Stephen Speicher 0]

Daylight-saving problems for computers this year? From InformationWeek.

Microsoft Issues Warning On Daylight-Saving Time Software Flaw

Microsoft says the Y2K-like implications of the change in the start of daylight-saving time means computer users need to parry like it's 1999.

By Paul McDougall

InformationWeek

Feb 14, 2007 10:00 AM

Microsoft is warning customers that the switch to early daylight-saving time this year isn't accounted for in a number of its products, including Windows XP, and that users will need to update their software to avoid potential problems.

U.S. daylight-saving time will start on March 11 this year -- three weeks earlier than usual. The change was authorized by the U.S. Energy Policy Act of 2005, but Microsoft says its Y2K-like implications mean computer users need to parry like it's 1999.

"Unless certain updates are applied to your computer, it is possible that the time zone settings for your computer's system clock may be incorrect during this four-week period," the software maker said in a statement issued Tuesday.

That could lead to all kinds of problems, from calendaring applications not working properly to key, automated processes not taking place on time.

Microsoft said the fix is already built into Windows Vista and Office 2007, but that earlier operating systems and applications could be hit by the problem. As of Tuesday, the company had released an update for Windows XP SP2 users via its Automatic Updates service. Users need to ensure they have Auto Update enabled.

Most of Microsoft's other major products, including Outlook 2007 and its predecessors, Windows NT, Windows 2000, Visual Studio, Windows CE, and a number of others, need to be updated, meaning some long nights may be in store for IT staffers leading up to the time switch.

Microsoft also warned that the problem isn't limited to its software. Consumer appliances such as VCRs and digital radios may not automatically adjust to the early start of daylight-saving time. Many systems on the business technology side also could be affected. IBM, for instance, has issued updates for some of its disk storage products and other systems.

In a research report, IT advisory firm Gartner is advising businesses to establish company-wide communications programs informing employees about possible effects of the early time changeover and to ensure that their tech departments are fully staffed on March 11 and 12.

Here is the Microsoft statement on the problem. If I am reading Microsoft's statement correctly, there is no way to change the system time manually in XP SP1? That doesn't sound right. Can't you do that using "Date and Time" in the Control Panel?

[ewv 0]

If I am reading Microsoft's statement correctly, there is no way to change the system time manually in XP SP1? That doesn't sound right. Can't you do that using "Date and Time" in the Control Panel?

Yes you can, but the automatic adjustment for daylight savings time won't work right unless you upgrade. I think that means that if you leave that option selected the automatic syncronization of time with the internet will change the time back to the "correct" value, with the daylight savings time error pushing it back an hour from your own manual offset. Your updates should be configured to be automatic or semi-automatic (with your confirmation) anyway, so normally you would never see this problem. I don't know if they have a daylight savings time patch for SP1 without upgrading to SP2, but normally you should be using SP2 anyway.

[Stephen Speicher 0]

If I am reading Microsoft's statement correctly, there is no way to change the system time manually in XP SP1? That doesn't sound right. Can't you do that using "Date and Time" in the Control Panel?

Yes you can, but the automatic adjustment for daylight savings time won't work right unless you upgrade. I think that means that if you leave that option selected the automatic syncronization of time with the internet will change the time back to the "correct" value, with the daylight savings time error pushing it back an hour from your own manual offset. Your updates should be configured to be automatic or semi-automatic (with your confirmation) anyway, so normally you would never see this problem. I don't know if they have a daylight savings time patch for SP1 without upgrading to SP2, but normally you should be using SP2 anyway.

They have no patch for SP1, which is why I brought up the question. When SP2 came out I heard many horror stories of the problems it caused on some subset of computers, and since everything was working just fine on my machine I have never updated.

The internet synchronization is nice for keeping the time pretty precise, so maybe the simplest solution is for me to just change timezones for the interim period until the software thinks daylight savings comes into effect. It's just a three week period. That should work, right?

[ewv 0]

Yes you can, but the automatic adjustment for daylight savings time won't work right unless you upgrade. I think that means that if you leave that option selected the automatic syncronization of time with the internet will change the time back to the "correct" value, with the daylight savings time error pushing it back an hour from your own manual offset. Your updates should be configured to be automatic or semi-automatic (with your confirmation) anyway, so normally you would never see this problem. I don't know if they have a daylight savings time patch for SP1 without upgrading to SP2, but normally you should be using SP2 anyway.

They have no patch for SP1, which is why I brought up the question. When SP2 came out I heard many horror stories of the problems it caused on some subset of computers, and since everything was working just fine on my machine I have never updated.

The internet synchronization is nice for keeping the time pretty precise, so maybe the simplest solution is for me to just change timezones for the interim period until the software thinks daylight savings comes into effect. It's just a three week period. That should work, right?

Yes, or just leave the automatic daylight savings time turned off.

New SPn's almost always causes problems for a lot of people when it first comes out because they are major changes. (I lost a whole labtop motherboard because of a faulty Dell firmware update for SP2.) But SP2 has been out for so long now with patches on patches that you are better off now with SP2. At most you might have to upgrade some non-usoft drivers if you have trouble, but you should keep them fairly up to date anyway.

[ewv 0]

Also, you don't have to go into the control panel to change the time settings. Right click on the time displayed in the taskbar and select Adjust Date/Time.

Also on the topic of time, there is a very useful enhanced time display available you should know about. If you don't already have it, download the free TClockEX from pcworld (or many other places) . It displays the date and day next to the time in the taskbar in the format of your choice, and also has a convenient popup calender. Note however that it displays only earth time with no relativistic corrections.

[Paul's Here 0]

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If I am reading Microsoft's statement correctly, there is no way to change the system time manually in XP SP1? That doesn't sound right. Can't you do that using "Date and Time" in the Control Panel?

Only if you double click the mouse near 0.95c so that the effects of relativistic motion can be observed.

[JeffT 0]

They have no patch for SP1, which is why I brought up the question. When SP2 came out I heard many horror stories of the problems it caused on some subset of computers, and since everything was working just fine on my machine I have never updated.

The internet synchronization is nice for keeping the time pretty precise, so maybe the simplest solution is for me to just change timezones for the interim period until the software thinks daylight savings comes into effect. It's just a three week period. That should work, right?

Windows XP pre-SP2 hasn't been supported by Microsoft for awhile now, so if you haven't updated, you're missing out on many critical security fixes. In my opinion, the problems that people report from Microsoft service pack updates and patches are overblown (that is, they affect far less people than casual attention might lead to believe), and the risk from unpatched security vulnerabilities is greater, for most users. Unless you have a specific reason you suspect SP2 may cause a problem with your system, I'd recommend updating.

Windows (and all modern operating systems) operate on universal time internally. Therefore, if you manually adjust the time zone twice instead of using the software update, you're actually operating on the wrong universal time (although the displayed local time appears the same) for the interim period. Probably not a disaster--but adjusting the time zone (or time) manually is not equivalent. It could, for example, cause any time-based events (in Windows itself or other software on the computer) to be off by one hour when viewed across the daylight saving adjustment boundaries.

The most reliable fix for this problem is to install the patches for any software that need it all at the same time, which is what Microsoft recommends.

[Stephen Speicher 0]

Windows (and all modern operating systems) operate on universal time internally. Therefore, if you manually adjust the time zone twice instead of using the software update, you're actually operating on the wrong universal time (although the displayed local time appears the same) for the interim period. Probably not a disaster--but adjusting the time zone (or time) manually is not equivalent. It could, for example, cause any time-based events (in Windows itself or other software on the computer) to be off by one hour when viewed across the daylight saving adjustment boundaries.

I'm not aware of any time-scheduled events on my system where the difference of one hour would be critical or even significant. But, perhaps there is something I am not aware of. Regardless, wouldn't ewv's suggestion of unticking the automatic daylight savings box, solve the problem?

[JeffT 0]

I'm not aware of any time-scheduled events on my system where the difference of one hour would be critical or even significant. But, perhaps there is something I am not aware of. Regardless, wouldn't ewv's suggestion of unticking the automatic daylight savings box, solve the problem?

Yes, I think simply disabling automatic daylight saving adjustment would allow manually setting the time so your computer always has the correct local time. I am not certain, but I think, during the interim 3-week period, if the computer did not have the patch installed, the reported universal time would be off. The reason for this is that the universal time and local time are still coordinated with each other according to the daylight saving schedule rules. For example, if you look through the list of time zones, there are not only the 4 major time zones in the US, but there is also a specific variation for each locality in the US that has different rules. If you live in a locality that does not observe daylight saving time, the most correct way to configure the computer is to leave the checkbox to automatically adjust selected, but then to change the time zone to that locality. (The reason the checkbox still matters is if you travel to a region that does observe daylight time, and adjust your time zone, or if you use Remote Desktop to connect to your computer from another computer in one of those time zones. It may also be preparing for future compatibility with future versions of Windows which support the time zone being adjusted on a per-user basis (different users simultaneously having different time zone settings).)

To elaborate...the main purpose of the checkbox that allows disabling automatically daylight time adjustment is for when multiple operating systems are installed side-by-side in different partitions on the same PC. Because the computer's internal physical clock operates in local time, not universal time, only one operating system should adjust it. Ideally, that is the one that will probably be running at the time of the adjustment, or otherwise there will be a period of incorrect time. This wouldn't be an issue if Windows supported the option to interpret the computer's clock as universal time (which Linux supports), because then the computer clock would never actually be adjusted at all.

You're right, though, that none of the built-in processes in Windows would likely suffer any ill effects from being an hour off. There is a possibility of ill effects, perhaps in conjunction with third party software, such as Outlook 2007, which would have the updated time zone rules built-in...but the truth is I'd have to research and think about it more to figure out exactly what would happen. I'll learn more about this as I update to Windows Vista, Office 2007, and installing the time fix on my Pocket PC sometime in the next few days, so I hope all goes well. I'll check appointments I have scheduled within the interim period to be sure they are correct.

[Stephen Speicher 0]

Yes, I think simply disabling automatic daylight saving adjustment would allow manually setting the time so your computer always has the correct local time.

I set the time manually and everything has worked just fine, until now. I noticed that the TV program schedules for my Media Center are listed at times an hour earlier than they are actually on. I reloaded the guide data, but still the same. The cable box itself has all programs listed at the correct times.

Anyone have a clue?

p.s. I have tried this with and without disabling "Automatically adjust clock for daylight savings changes," and nothing changed.

[JeffT 0]

I set the time manually and everything has worked just fine, until now. I noticed that the TV program schedules for my Media Center are listed at times an hour earlier than they are actually on. I reloaded the guide data, but still the same. The cable box itself has all programs listed at the correct times.

Anyone have a clue?

p.s. I have tried this with and without disabling "Automatically adjust clock for daylight savings changes," and nothing changed.

If your computer doesn't have the patch installed, that's probably all you can do. Another side effect is that emails sent from your computer probably show up as an hour off if somebody else views the "sent" time (as opposed to "received" time, which is marked by the receiving mail server).

You have the correct local time, but not the correct universal time.

The primary purpose of the "automatically adjust clock for daylight savings time" checkbox is if you have a second operating system on your machine that also adjusts the computer's hardware clock (which is saved, unfortunately, in local time, not universal time). If you multi-boot on the same machine, the idea is that you will be running the single operating system that is responsible for changing the clock at the moment of the switchover (or if you aren't, at least you will boot in to it soon). In other words, the computer still assumes that the clock will be changed (by the user or another program) at the correct boundaries of the daylight savings time. If the computer does not recognize the new rules, then it still derives the universal time based on the old rules. Hence, your computer's universal, but not local, clock is off for the interval between the old start and new start of daylight saving time.

An update, since I said I'd be upgrading software. I installed Windows Vista, Office 2007, and installed the time zone update patch on my Pocket PC, all one after the other. Windows Vista successfully changed at the correct date (March 11). I also haven't had any problems on my PC regarding Outlook appointment times, before or after the switch. Finally, my Pocket PC adjusted its time to DST at the correct date. However, some appointments don't keep the correct start and end times on the Pocket PC when synchronized between the PC and the Pocket PC. Such may be the inevitable result of having an architecture that is not equipped to handle changes in DST rules. (I haven't fully investigated workarounds yet, but I imagine it's fixable without too much difficulty. It seems to only affect certain already existing appointments, not new ones.)

I have seen it stated that changes to DST rules are a problem because calendaring programs store the time in local time, rather than universal. That's not correct. The problem is that they store it in universal time, not local! If the programs stored the data in local time (and of course stored the record of which time zone it is), then the correct start and end times would always be "anchored" to whatever changes in DST rules might happen in the future. Because the data is stored in universal time (noting the time zone), there is no way to tell whether the data was intended for the old rules or the new rules. That is what causes the hour offsets in networked calendaring environments, and the need for Microsoft's tool that allows manually adjusting appointments in batch by one hour.

One (mostly) positive note: My radio-set clock, a model by Oregon Scientific, correctly adjusted at the new date, based on reading the DST start date from the NIST WWV signal. At first, though, I thought it didn't: Because due to an error the clock has always had, it adjusts at the wrong time of day, rather than date. It always adjusts at 3:00am instead of the correct 2:00am.

[Stephen Speicher 0]

If your computer doesn't have the patch installed, that's probably all you can do.

I understand the UTC issue, but I thought that since Media Center downloads the schedule from a specified local source, that the schedule would be keyed to that local source. Why would my local computer time affect the time of the programming schedule?

[JeffT 0]

I understand the UTC issue, but I thought that since Media Center downloads the schedule from a specified local source, that the schedule would be keyed to that local source. Why would my local computer time affect the time of the programming schedule?

Ah, I see. Although it might adjust based on your computer's time zone, your time zone is correctly set--just the time (universal) itself is off. (One wouldn't expect the schedule to adjust, say, by 5 minutes, if your clock were 5 minutes off.) Or...would it? Perhaps the downloaded schedule is used to schedule your computer to record programs? If the software is measuring your computer clock's offset from a remote clock, then it might be adjusting to ensure that your computer always records or alerts you at the right time.

If that's not the case, then I'm not sure. Maybe they're just having a server or software problem.

[Stephen Speicher 0]

Ah, I see. Although it might adjust based on your computer's time zone, your time zone is correctly set--just the time (universal) itself is off. (One wouldn't expect the schedule to adjust, say, by 5 minutes, if your clock were 5 minutes off.) Or...would it? Perhaps the downloaded schedule is used to schedule your computer to record programs? If the software is measuring your computer clock's offset from a remote clock, then it might be adjusting to ensure that your computer always records or alerts you at the right time.

If that's not the case, then I'm not sure. Maybe they're just having a server or software problem.

Just in case I was not clear ... On the Media Center guide schedule, Lost is shown as starting at 9PM, even though it is actually scheduled for 10PM. And, the cable box guide shows Lost correctly, as scheduled for 10PM.

Sort of confusing.

[JeffT 0]

Just in case I was not clear ... On the Media Center guide schedule, Lost is shown as starting at 9PM, even though it is actually scheduled for 10PM. And, the cable box guide shows Lost correctly, as scheduled for 10PM.

Sort of confusing.

Yes, I think I understood.

What I was speculating was that, when you connect, your computer transmits its universal time to the server (or the server transmits its universal time to you), and the offset is discovered. In your case, it is 1 hour--the software thinks that your computer's clock is one hour ahead. Then, the times shown in the media center are adjusted based on your offset, and then translated back to your local time, based on either the server's rules for daylight time, which are correct, or rules specific to the media center software (perhaps this is automatically updated even if your operating system isn't). That way, if you (or the software) are scheduling recording the TV show on your computer, then your computer will record the show at the exact right time.

This (again, only according to my speculation) would be a feature intended to ensure that your computer always records at the correct time. So, for example, if your computer's clock is 6 minutes off, you can still record the shows correctly. Except that this "feature" would cause the anomaly you describe if the server and client are using different rules to translate between local and universal time--and in the case of a daylight saving time rule change, they would be.

Thinking about it more, I'm not really going to claim I think this is what's happening. Otherwise the schedule would show things like "8:59pm to 9:59pm" if your computer clock was just 1 minute off, which would be disconcerting. I only offer it as a possibility. But, it also wouldn't surprise me if there was a bug on the server software (having nothing to do with your client computer) because they forgot to patch something, perhaps just on one server in a cluster or something like that.

[Stephen Speicher 0]

Jeff, I do appreciate you trying to figure this one out.

But, it also wouldn't surprise me if there was a bug on the server software (having nothing to do with your client computer) because they forgot to patch something, perhaps just on one server in a cluster or something like that.

Which server software are you referring to? Do you mean the cable provider?

[JeffT 0]

Jeff, I do appreciate you trying to figure this one out.

Which server software are you referring to? Do you mean the cable provider?

I was kind of vague, because I have no idea. But it could be any server computer or intermediate computer that processes the data, and there are so many places where the problem could occur. It could be the cable provider, or the intermediary servers run by Microsoft if Microsoft collects the data and hosts it themselves (I don't know very much about the Media Center software in Windows).

One thing to test would be just to set your clock back an hour and try refreshing the schedule again. Although I would generally recommend against changing the system clock if not necessary, it would probably be harmless in this case.

[ewv 0]

Do you know anyone else with Media Center who has the same problem, with or without the SP2 upgrade?

[Stephen Speicher 0]

Do you know anyone else with Media Center who has the same problem, with or without the SP2 upgrade?

I don't know anyone around my area who is using it, though some members of THE FORUM use Media Center.

Regarding Jeff's several suppositions, I have confirmed one thing: whatever is going on is independent of the local time on my computer. I set my computer time to be hours off of the actual time and when downloading the schedule everything is off by one hour, just like before.

[ewv 0]

I don't know anyone around my area who is using it, though some members of THE FORUM use Media Center.

Regarding Jeff's several suppositions, I have confirmed one thing: whatever is going on is independent of the local time on my computer. I set my computer time to be hours off of the actual time and when downloading the schedule everything is off by one hour, just like before.

You could try also experimenting with the time zone to see if it makes any difference, but from what you describe I doubt it would help. If you find someone with SP2 who doesn't have the problem that would be a strong clue.

Whatever the cause, it would be best for you to upgrade to SP2 to rule that out, and you should do that anyway. Check for driver updates first, which you should also do anyway, then make sure you have a full backup of your system partition in case you have to quickly revert to it.

[Stephen Speicher 0]

Whatever the cause, it would be best for you to upgrade to SP2 to rule that out ...

Ha! I found the group microsoft.public.windows.mediacenter, and a whole bunch of guys who applied the DST update to SP2 are complaining about their own one-hour-off problem. It seems that, for them, the schedule appears correctly, but the recording time is one hour off. (You can't win. )

Before I found that group, I poked around in Media Center and found that the software uses zap2it as the scheduling source. I put in my zip code at zap2it.com and viewed the same-named provider that I downloaded to Media Center. The website schedule has the correct times, but the Media Center schedule times are off by an hour.

At this point I have concluded two things:

1. Getting the 6 o'clock news at 5 o'clock should be interesting, especially for live news.

2. I'll wait until the old DST comes into effect. I suspect the problem will go away then.