PhilO

What forms of self defense could be a core subject in school?

38 posts in this topic

Carlos,

Yes, a martial artist, especially one who has done full contact fighting, will be better able to handle street brawls. It's better than nothing. My recommendation would be Muay Thai rather than traditional boxing.

The methods I mentionned are those developed by special forces of the UK and US during WW2. They are described in books such as:

- Kill or get killed, by Col. Rex Applegate

- Get tough, by Capt. Fairbairn

- The Close-Combat Files of Colonel Rex Applegate

All those books can be found on Amazon.

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Who's disagreeing? So why isn't even some basic level of self-defense being taught? Gets back to my original question.

Leaving aside the questionable assumption about "once in a lifetime", here's a question: Do you fail to pay for car and house and other insurance because of the low probability that you'll ever need it? If you do, why do you? It's a fair bit of money isn't it?

Look at the news again. A large bit of the news is comprised of stories about criminal events, where an innocent person was attacked. And that greatly under-reports smaller criminal events. If decent people did not need to be concerned about the bad guys, there would be no need for the police - and the police are unlikely to help you at the moment you need it.

I am not going to argue that point any further, but there are a number of things wrong with your example. First of all, a large number of possible assailants do not fit that description (I'd never heard of him before but he was a "hit man" for the Gambino crime family, hardly the usual criminal - he was an assassin that relied on the unexpected.)

And secondly, I reject your idea that this person would be unstoppable against a well trained smaller man without a gun. Or - somebody else *with* a gun, there is that too.

The reason it is not being taught is because it is not part of the basic fundamentals of nature nor knowledge. When society falls then maybe it should be taught to all that want to learn it. But, last I checked we are not there as of yet.

Leaving aside the fact that you nor anyone else have stilled not answered my question on how many times have you actually been in a fight. I do not know anyone directly besides myself and my uncle (who is dead), that have been in a situation where there were actual fists, kicks, knifes, bats and other objects being thrown. So again how many times have you or anyone else been in a fight for your life?

I also pay my insurance because the mortgage/loan company makes it mandatory or they will not give me the loan for the house, car and other objects. But, there is a big difference between how many people you know directly that get in car accidents and how many people get in a deadly fight.

I do not remember ever reading or seeing any bad guys not relying on the unexpected. Your right, a lot of assailants do not fit the description of the one I used. But, a lot of assailants are still bad guys that do not stop to ask if them putting a gun or bat to your head for your wallet is unexpected. Further, Mr. Kuklinski killed a lot of people before he became a hit man for the mob.

I reject your idea that a person with a gun/killer would even waste his time trying to fight "toe to toe" with someone else. Anyone that is willing to punch an old lady in the head and take her purse is not going to worry about shooting you either. What I am trying to get at here is that bad guys do not ask if you have training in self-defense, they just shoot you, hit you with something very hard or stab you.

I would like to say that I agree with what I think Joss is stating, that being the fact that a person has to have more than just the training to win a street fight. When a person gets hit, it hurts like hell, I guarantee it. You see stars, you become some what disoriented, your heart rate picks up and you might even get scared. This is not something you learn to control while reading a book on the subject nor in a training room. The first time to feel a punch to the face, a kick to the ribs or an arm around your throat should not come in the street fight. Giving a few kicks to a person that is taking it in a fully cushioned suit is not anything like the real thing, for either person. I also knew a lot of people in the military that had a lot of training in SD/MA and I also watched them get pummeled. So, I agree with Joss, that one has to have the mental toughness along with the physical training of which I have not met many.

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I also pay my insurance because the mortgage/loan company makes it mandatory or they will not give me the loan for the house, car and other objects.

Do you mean that you wouldn't otherwise pay for the insurance?

But, there is a big difference between how many people you know directly that get in car accidents and how many people get in a deadly fight.

I never restricted what I was saying to "deadly fight". My context is a decent person being trained to better handle any physical conflict, and being aware that any such conflict is a serious matter. You are in essence saying that such training is a pointless waste of time for the "average person", and I totally disagree.

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Do you mean that you wouldn't otherwise pay for the insurance?

I never restricted what I was saying to "deadly fight". My context is a decent person being trained to better handle any physical conflict, and being aware that any such conflict is a serious matter. You are in essence saying that such training is a pointless waste of time for the "average person", and I totally disagree.

At the cost of my insurance and in the proper context, where I live along with other factors, it is worth it to me to pay. But, in another context I might have a different answer for you.

You are correct, that is exactly what I am saying.

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I never restricted what I was saying to "deadly fight". My context is a decent person being trained to better handle any physical conflict, and being aware that any such conflict is a serious matter. You are in essence saying that such training is a pointless waste of time for the "average person", and I totally disagree.
You are correct, that is exactly what I am saying.

To add a little more relevance to my answer I would like to use another example. A lot of people get hit by cars, buses, trucks, bikes and other objects should we all start practicing how to "handle" the "physical conflict" through proper practice. Again, I think for most it would be a waste of time. There is a difference between what is possible and what is probable. I like to make my choices by what I think is probable.

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I disagree with your disagreement. The reason I mentioned whether someone has actually been in a fight is to point out how much effort could be spent in an endeavor to "be ready" for something that is most likely never going to come.

I'm NOT actually disagreeing with you about the point that you are not likely to ever be attacked.

I think it is a rationally sound endeavour for someone to pursue skills that would allow them to end a violent attack, even if it is unlikely that such an event will happen to that person. (remembering that such can be learned in as little as three hours [or as many hours as one would like])

Each individual must make a judgment, therefore. To discount the pursuit of formal Self-Defense training because it is unlikely to be needed. Or to pursue formal Self-Defense training because they wish to gain skills to better defend themselves IF they were attacked.

The choice to partake or not to partake in the gaining of Self-Defense skills is therefore left to the hierarchy of values, and experiences, possessed by the individual decision maker. And I think that such a decision can be made without ever having been in a violent confrontation.

And THAT is why I disagree with your request for knowledge if I (or anyone else) have been in a fight.

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RobC,

I agree with you, that each person has to make choices according to their values. But, value choices are or should be made according to the facts of reality.

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-------------

Leaving aside the fact that you nor anyone else have stilled not answered my question on how many times have you actually been in a fight. I do not know anyone directly besides myself and my uncle (who is dead), that have been in a situation where there were actual fists, kicks, knifes, bats and other objects being thrown. So again how many times have you or anyone else been in a fight for your life?

-------

Zero. Never even had to think about fighting someone.

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RobC,

I agree with you, that each person has to make choices according to their values. But, value choices are or should be made according to the facts of reality.

Then why don't you render the same judgment call you make with insurance:

"At the cost of my insurance and in the proper context, where I live along with other factors, it is worth it to me to pay. But, in another context I might have a different answer for you."

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Then why don't you render the same judgment call you make with insurance:

I did and do. The world has not crumbled and most have not been in any life or death fights nor will they which is what I was trying to show by having someone answer my question.

If you are constantly getting into situations where you need to proctect your life through fighting then I would recommend learning the skills needed to survive. But, from my perspective this is NOT Escape From New York, yet.

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If you are constantly getting into situations where you need to proctect your life through fighting then I would recommend learning the skills needed to survive.

If you are constantly getting into those situations, you need to learn how to avoid such situations.

The bulk of the self-defense course I took years ago focused on prudent living so that I would not ever get attacked in the first place.

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What these people mean by psychologically prepared, etc. is that if you are not willing to kill you are not fit to fight and defend yourself, whether in hand-to-hand combat, or with a gun.

Also, if you are very well trained, and willing to kill, you are likely to be like Betsy, you know how to anticipate and avoid trouble. But if there is no alternative, you go for the kill without waiting to see if the bad guy only wants to hurt and rob you or to kill you.

Ayn Rand did two book reviews on the subject, and then later did an article saying that most people are unable to apply abstractions in practical action, but if given examples can do variations. As I had already been there and done that I saw the connection. I think most of her students don't get it.

The first book is _One Lonely Night_ by Mickey Spillane. That is an example of the proper (Objectivist) attitude to have toward the bad guys. The second book is _Death of a Citizen_ by Donald Hamilton. That is an example of the proper (Objectivist) method of dealing efficaciously with the bad guys. Read and learn from Ayn Rand. When necessary do variations.

Tom Caldwell

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My view is that it *should* be a natural, required school subject, for the simple fact that self defense is something virtually every human being needs to know at some point in their life. Some discussion points could be: age of introduction; types of self defense; basic training in a number of weapons, particularly ad hoc weapons; which martial arts could be most effectively taught on a large scale (e.g. Asian vs. recent inventions such as Israel's Krav Maga.)

Wrestling, Judo, and boxing are typically practiced in many universities and high schools. I like that they are elective extra-curriculuar activities because they are not for everyone. People can get injured. They are very effective for unarmed self-defence, are fun sports, and promote athleticism.

A week from now I am heading on a pilgrimage to Thailand for the next four months to train Muay Thai (and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) at a Thai boxing camp. I don't train for self-defence though, I do it because I love the sport and competing in the ring.

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