RayK

The earning of a title!

38 posts in this topic

At 0900 hours on July 6, 1990 I was dismissed as a new Marine from Marine Corps Recruit Depot, Parris Island, South Carolina. After 3 months of being pushed, shoved and yelled at, along with going without sleep, food, rest and so much more I finally earned the title that I have held in esteem ever since. Over 100 people came into my platton (2060) over those three months but only 38 walked across the parade deck for graduation on that hot summer morning.

In the fall of 1989 after going to college or attempting to go to college for almost 2 1/2 years I decided there had to be a better way to make a living and still afford an education. Up until that point I worked 2-3 jobs at a time trying to work my way through college. I had sold my car and used every bit of savings that I had by the fall of 1989 and was unwilling to live with or on anyone else, I wanted to earn my own way. I withdrew from the following semester and joined the Marine Corps on the 19th of March 1990, the journey began.

Arriving at Parris Island in the early morning hours and in almost total darkness is enough to dis-orient almost anyone. And before I even got off of the bus I was already getting yelled at and it never let up until graduation. Around 0100 hours I stepped off the bus and onto some yellow foot-prints just outside of the bases' recruit receiving building. By this time I had already been up around 24 hours and would not get any sleep until late that night. During the first day I filled out paperwork, took test (in hot, dark rooms), got all the hair on my head shaved, got my first issue of uniforms, got another physical and many, many shots in all sorts of places and of course got yelled at for not being fast enough or smart enough at all things.

For close to a week I, along with other new recruits waited around for enough people to start a platoon, a series and a company. In this first week I began to adjust to what I thought "Boot-Camp" was going to be like, I was wrong. Once there was enough people to form a platoon I met my Platoon Drill Instuctors and every other Company Drill Instructor in a storm of chaos. Yelling and screaming the Drill Instructors got there point across to the new recruits that we were lower than whale crap. Objects such as uniforms, shaving kits, writing tablets and any thing else the Drill Instructors could get their hands on went flying around the squad-bay with new recruits chasing their gear down. To paraphrase a line from a Stanley Kubrick film, "we were in a world of _____!"

On training day five I earned the position of Platoon Guide and never relenquished it after that day. I payed for that title every morning and many times during each day as someone under my charge would make a mistake. I did countless push-ups, sit-ups, bends and thrust, leg-lifts, rolling in tick infested sand, running in place and so many more punishments that I do not care to remember.

The days were long and the nights were very, very short. The meals were sometimes swallowed in less than five minutes so I learned to stay away from hard foods. Every where I went was at full speed or very close to full speed. I learned to fight with many different objects including knifes, which were made of a very hard plastic and could still leave a cut or bruise. I spent weeks on the rifle range learning to shoot almost every hand held weapon the Marine Corps used. I also spent weeks on the rifle range learning to shoot from 100 to 500 yards away from my target which was sometimes just inches in diameter. The attack to my mind and body was brutal, but the reward was the motivator.

On that steamy hot morning of July 6, 1990 I put on my dress uniform and stood as tall as I knew how. I grabbed my guidon with it's crimson back-ground and gold numbers (2060), and carried it with all the pride that I had earned. It was a glorious day for me as I had earned the title of United States Marine, The Few, The Proud!

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On that steamy hot morning of July 6, 1990 I put on my dress uniform and stood as tall as I knew how. I grabbed my guidon with it's crimson back-ground and gold numbers (2060), and carried it with all the pride that I had earned. It was a glorious day for me as I had earned the title of United States Marine, The Few, The Proud!

Congratulations on your achievement, Ray.

Perhaps you could explain one thing that I never understood about the military. What is the purpose of the yelling, shouting, and belittling of people?

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Perhaps you could explain one thing that I never understood about the military. What is the purpose of the yelling, shouting, and belittling of people?

I'm curious what Ray says about that. Though I don't have the military experience, my surmise is that there were some elements of the American military that were set in place by Prussian (German) military techniques, taught by Prussian advisors at the time of the Revolutionary War; and as with Christianity, and other Prussian/German imports (Kant), became part of a tradition that is not exactly rationally beneficial. There were other such European imports that were a mess, such as Napoleonic (French) tactics in the Civil War that involved large masses of men that succumbed to improvements in technology such as more accurate cannons and far more accurate, longer range, mass produced rifles.

I don't say this by way of criticizing soldiers or the U.S. military generally - but as Objectivists know all too well, tradition does not make something right.

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On that steamy hot morning of July 6, 1990 I put on my dress uniform and stood as tall as I knew how. I grabbed my guidon with it's crimson back-ground and gold numbers (2060), and carried it with all the pride that I had earned. It was a glorious day for me as I had earned the title of United States Marine, The Few, The Proud!

Congratulations on your achievement, Ray.

Perhaps you could explain one thing that I never understood about the military. What is the purpose of the yelling, shouting, and belittling of people?

First of all, my congratulations to Ray; it must have been tough work indeed.

Just why all the yelling and demeaning go on is something I have thought about as well. My conclusion is that in a command structure, one can control others better, if their sense of self is numbed. They have to be made to feel subservient to superiors, so that they follow orders more readily.

I must say, I have never been able to figure out how one combines individual initiative with the requirement not to question orders. In any event, I could never submit myself to the abuses of, not only commanding officers, but initiations by one's peers. It makes me admire those who overcome this hard time all the more.

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Perhaps you could explain one thing that I never understood about the military. What is the purpose of the yelling, shouting, and belittling of people?

The main point to yelling and shouting is to teach, and there are several things being taught.

1. A battle is LOUD, and one must be able to project through the din. Hence soldiers, (sailors and marines, too), must learn to be loud.

2. To be loud, most people must be sure of themselves, and it is required as a demonstration of certitude.

3. It teaches one to project.

4. It is also just good physical exercise.

The belittling of people also has a few reasons behind it.

The main model for producing a soldier is from a four-stage leadership/management theory. (It also works remarkably well in any business situation.) The four stages the soldier and the boss go through are 1. Authoritarian/coercer. 2. Teacher. 3. Democrat. 4. Coach. Which one to use depends on how the recruit, (employee), is acting. The belittling takes place at the beginning of training when the recruit is in stage 1, or if he situationally reverts to stage 1. A good boss recognizes in what stage his charge is and uses the appropriate technique. I could go much further, but my consultancy charges $2000/day for this sort of advice. :o

Another point to belittling someone is the "significant emotional event" that helps people remember the event, their part in it, and the consequences should it befall them again.

If someone cannot stand being belittled, he/she has little value in combat. Thus, it is also a way to weed out those who are not capable of being effective in high stress situations. The consequences of mistakes in military matters are far too grave to accept ineptitude.

I would say that these same methods and the reasons behind them have been valid forever, and I have no doubt Socrates went through the same thing during his boot camp.

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Perhaps you could explain one thing that I never understood about the military. What is the purpose of the yelling, shouting, and belittling of people?

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If someone cannot stand being belittled, he/she has little value in combat. Thus, it is also a way to weed out those who are not capable of being effective in high stress situations. The consequences of mistakes in military matters are far too grave to accept ineptitude.

I would say that these same methods and the reasons behind them have been valid forever, and I have no doubt Socrates went through the same thing during his boot camp.

Having never served in the military, I'm not sure I understand why those would be the reasons. But if they are truely the reasons, I can see why I never would put up with such methods. They are certainly not motivational to me.

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The belittling of people also has a few reasons behind it.

The main model for producing a soldier is from a four-stage leadership/management theory. (It also works remarkably well in any business situation.)

While this may work well in the military as an effective way of controlling the physical force soldiers wield, business is based on mind, not force. I have had a long and very successful business career, completed dozens of major projects on time and on budget, and managed hundreds of people. Not once did I ever belittle anyone.

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Oooh! Rah! Ray, congratulations. One thing you have never explained is how a Leather Neck could fall into a hole and break his neck. Was the leather getting soft :o I say this in good fun as part of the R & R thread. Thank you for your service. Tomorrow, I'm off to visit some old roomates and classmates who took the oath on July 1, 1987, 20 years ago. I'll propose a toast to Progressive Exercise.

Thanks again, Ray.

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Thank you all for the kind words, and for those that mentioned it you are welcome for the defense.

The primary reason for the yelling and screaming is to test the recruits, to see if they can handle the stress of war. I wrote in my first post that "the attack to my mind and body was brutal" and the yelling and screaming plays a large part of the stress. From training day one the Drill Instructors are already challenging and judging a recruit's reactions to their demands. There really is no room in the Marine Corps for anyone that cannot handle getting yelled at. When rounds/bullets start coming down range at you and your troops, you will want people next to you that can handle this type of situation. If a person cannot handle getting yelled at by a Drill Instructor they most likely will not be able to handle being shot at. So the primary reason for all the challenges which includes getting yelled at is to weed out all people that cannot stand the abuse of war.

Maybe I can concretize it a little better with an example. While in Boot Camp a recruit is tasked with many things that are supposed to be done quickly. One of those many things is taking apart one's rifle which is called field stripping of one's weapon. Some times during the shooting of one's weapon it will jam-up and you are left without the ability to fire at your enemies. Imagen the stress of being fired at without being able to fire back until you quickly fix your rifle. In Marine Corps Boot Camp the Drill Instructors cannot fire real rounds at the recruits so they try and simulate the stress of war by yelling and screaming at the recruits.

I never thought of all the yelling, screaming and other mental and physical stressors as belittling just another challenge for me to overcome.

The Marine Corps never states that you should not question what your commanders or superiors have to say, they just expect the questioning to be done at an appropriate time. That appropriate time is during training and not during actual manuvers. All the questions, mistakes and other problems should be solved during training so that when the crab hits the fan you and your men operate as one unit with one goal in mind, killing the enemy.

With that said I do agree with Phil and Arnold on some of their criticisms about the military. The Marine Corps has many traditions that I totally disagree with but I always tried to keep my goals in mind which meant getting through some things that I did not agree with.

If I left some questions or statements unanswered please ask again or ask some new ones if I did not explain myself well enough.

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Oooh! Rah! Ray, congratulations. One thing you have never explained is how a Leather Neck could fall into a hole and break his neck. Was the leather getting soft :o I say this in good fun as part of the R & R thread. Thank you for your service. Tomorrow, I'm off to visit some old roomates and classmates who took the oath on July 1, 1987, 20 years ago. I'll propose a toast to Progressive Exercise.

Thanks again, Ray.

Thank you Rick and I hope you enjoy your toast!

With your dad being in the Marine Corps and your time at Annapolis you should know that Marines always get the old worn out equipment. My leather strap was as soft as puddy. :)

Please tell your friends that I send my congratulations and thanks for their effort.

I also agree with Betsy's statements. While in the Marine Corps I never belittled any of my troops, instead I always tried to lead by exemplfying what Marine Corps toughness is about. I also always tried to use tact with all my troops but please remember that these are extremely confident warriors that think they can take on the world and win so shouting sometimes plays a part during the conversations.

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With your dad being in the Marine Corps and your time at Annapolis you should know that Marines always get the old worn out equipment. My leather strap was as soft as puddy. :)

Thats no excuse. You should have known how to roll properly :o When I get back, I will talk about how too much neats foot oil in my combat boots caused the leather to get soft and attract dust and the "world of ____", I got myself into with Sgt. Airborne during Airborne School at Ft. Benning.

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While this may work well in the military as an effective way of controlling the physical force soldiers wield, business is based on mind, not force. I have had a long and very successful business career, completed dozens of major projects on time and on budget, and managed hundreds of people. Not once did I ever belittle anyone.

I haven't had that level of management experience, but of what I've had, in any other team situation, I can only agree.

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Perhaps you could explain one thing that I never understood about the military. What is the purpose of the yelling, shouting, and belittling of people?

I'm curious what Ray says about that. Though I don't have the military experience, my surmise is that there were some elements of the American military that were set in place by Prussian (German) military techniques, taught by Prussian advisors at the time of the Revolutionary War; and as with Christianity, and other Prussian/German imports (Kant), became part of a tradition that is not exactly rationally beneficial. There were other such European imports that were a mess, such as Napoleonic (French) tactics in the Civil War that involved large masses of men that succumbed to improvements in technology such as more accurate cannons and far more accurate, longer range, mass produced rifles.

I don't say this by way of criticizing soldiers or the U.S. military generally - but as Objectivists know all too well, tradition does not make something right.

George C. Bancroft is a person of interest when looking at (in Bancroft's case a Hegelian influence) German influence on the military.

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I also agree with Betsy's statements. While in the Marine Corps I never belittled any of my troops, instead I always tried to lead by exemplfying what Marine Corps toughness is about. I also always tried to use tact with all my troops but please remember that these are extremely confident warriors that think they can take on the world and win so shouting sometimes plays a part during the conversations.

I would like to add a little more information to clarify my stand on yelling, screaming and sometimes pushing or hitting someone else. I do not expect that everyone will agree but I will try and explain as best I can.

While in the Marine Corps I was yelled at very often, this almost never bothered me. I was also hit a lot while in Boot Camp and at the School Of Infantry, sometimes this bothered me and sometimes it did not. One of the most profound times that I remember getting hit was while I was on the rifle range laying in the prone position shooting at a target that was 300 yards away. I had shot my first 3 rounds out of a total of 10 and had hit just outside the bulls-eye on all 3. A bulls-eye is worth 10 points and I had received 8 points (there is not a 9 point area) which put me down 6 points. My Primary Marksman Instructor (PMI), came over to me after my third shot and asked to see my rifle which I quickly handed to him. The PMI began to look my rifle over while I was still laying on the ground looking up at him, then WHAM he hit me right in my forehead with the butt of the rifle, it hurt like hell. Then without another word he gave me my rifle back and just walked away, my next 7 shots went directly into the bulls-eye. As I got up to walk to the 500 yard mark to do the same thing he grabbed me by my shirt collar and said, "Its a good thing I fixed your rifle, huh Guide?" My reply to his statement was, "Yes sir!" This did not bother me at the time as I thought if I could not handle this pain, I should not be a Marine.

Another time that I was hit was while I was in the School Of Infantry (SOI), and this one I did not approve of. I had earned a leadership positon in SOI and was in charge of a platoon of Marines. One morning before morning formation I had allowed a couple of my Marines to go to the head/toilet as we had over 20 minutes before the formation began. Well the Company Gunny was about to start the formation early and my troop was just coming out of the head so I waved for him to hustle up and get in formation. The Company Gunny stopped the morning announcements and called me out in front of the whole company. As I was walking up to him to report to him, he slapped me right acorss my face. This was an attempt at belittling me, it did not work as I did not give him any pleasure in my discomfort. I did not move, I did not whine, moan or even jerk away, he was not going to beat me.

One final example was while I was moving toward the end of my career and I was the person doing the shoving and yelling at someone. In the spring of 1998 I had received some new troops that rotated in from another battalion. Because these Marines were new to this command and job I gave them some time to adjust to their new surroundings. After a short amount of time I started to expect more from them and I told them so. One of the younger Marines (who was 22), told me he was tired of me telling him what to do. He specifically stated, "I should beat the hell out of you old man." I was just 29 which made me only 7 years older than him, and not what I would call an old man. There was about 6-8 people in my office at the time and I told one of the other Marines to shut my hatch/door. As soon as my door was shut, I leaped across the room and put a choke hold on him and took him to his knees in about 3 seconds. He bagan to yell and scream for help, the only one that offered any help was a Master Sergeant (E-8) that had an office next to mine and heard this Marine screaming. I opened the door while still holding this other Marine and told the Master Sergeant that everything was fine and I then slammed the door so that I could finish my business. I approve of this type of pushing and shoving. If I would have let this punk tell me what he said without any defense on my part I would have lost not only my own self-respect but also the respect of my troops.

Again, I have never tried to belittle any Marine as my primary concern. But, I have never been afraid to yell, scream, push or hit if the context required.

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I never thought of all the yelling, screaming and other mental and physical stressors as belittling just another challenge for me to overcome.

But you also said initially of your Pariss vacation:

Yelling and screaming the Drill Instructors got there point across to the new recruits that we were lower than whale crap.

I have read that the demeaning treatment is deliberate to reduce the recruits to feeling like they are nothing so they will be permenantly obedient. Is that true? Is there anything necessary for inducing such a state of mind which is required in military training for combat? Whether intended as necessary or not, that alone is enough to make many of us detest the very thought of being subjected to it. Can you imagine Howard Roark ever being reduced to such a state, even if he were to tolerate the treatment? Does this mean that a Howard Roark could not be effective in the military? If so, that would imply that the military requires breeding an underclass of people to be deliberately non-ideal as human beings, who think of themselves and others as expendable under brute force. It's also clear that certain sadistic mentalities thrive on such power regardless of any military theory, which you must have also encountered, and which some of them retain long after being discharged. Don't you think that the clown who hit you in the head with the end of a rifle was one of them? He could have killed you. Is punishment really a motive for doing well when you are already doing your best?

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I never thought of all the yelling, screaming and other mental and physical stressors as belittling just another challenge for me to overcome.

But you also said initially of your Pariss vacation:

Yelling and screaming the Drill Instructors got there point across to the new recruits that we were lower than whale crap.

I have read that the demeaning treatment is deliberate to reduce the recruits to feeling like they are nothing so they will be permenantly obedient. Is that true? Is there anything necessary for inducing such a state of mind which is required in military training for combat? Whether intended as necessary or not, that alone is enough to make many of us detest the very thought of being subjected to it. Can you imagine Howard Roark ever being reduced to such a state, even if he were to tolerate the treatment? Does this mean that a Howard Roark could not be effective in the military? If so, that would imply that the military requires breeding an underclass of people to be deliberately non-ideal as human beings, who think of themselves and others as expendable under brute force. It's also clear that certain sadistic mentalities thrive on such power regardless of any military theory, which you must have also encountered, and which some of them retain long after being discharged. Don't you think that the clown who hit you in the head with the end of a rifle was one of them? He could have killed you. Is punishment really a motive for doing well when you are already doing your best?

Ewv,

You are right and I should have written, that we were supposed to feel lower than whale crap, as I have never in my life had a lack of self-esteem. The Marine Corps and their Drill Instructors, at least when I went through, believed that the only way to train you is by first breaking you down. If this was true than they would have ended up with no Marines because the yelling, screaming/"belittling" never stopped the whole time I went through Boot Camp. Just like other areas of society/culture the Marine Corps has many contradictions and why I mentioned earlier about always keeping my long-term goals in mind while dealing with those contradictions. I am sure that most of the members of the Marine Corps look at the training just like you explained it, but I did not. I looked at it as I explained it earlier, as a challenge to see if I was strong enough to withstand anything they could put upon me, and I was.

To answer your question about obedience, I would say no. No where in any Marine Corps Manuals do they state nor did any Marine leader ever state that they want non-thinkers. As I stated earlier, you do not get in trouble for asking questions within a proper chain and at a proper time. But when rounds start coming down range and Marines lifes are on the line and the time for action is very limited is not the time to have a philosophical discussion.

One of the contradictions that I had to deal with right from the begining was the Marine Corps' attack on the "I", the individual. While in Boot Camp a recruit is not supposed to say "I" and is expected to speak in the third person. I disagreed and hated this for many reasons, but I dealt with it to achieve my long-term goals. I also dealt with the "belittling" in my own way and had to pay the price for my objections many times. I would never call my self names, just imagine some names that I cannot write here and I have been called those names and more.

DI: You are a wussy (of course it was much worse).

Me: No sir.

DI: Are you calling me a liar?

Me: No sir.

DI: Then you are a wussy.

Me: No sir.

DI: Your a wussy, say it.

Me: No sir, the private will not say it.

DI: Then get on your face and do push-ups until I get tired.

I went through this type of stuff almost everday, but I never gave in to their "belittling", I would not allow myself.

I agree with you that there are some sadistic people in the military that thrive on those types of actions but I do not think that my PMI was one of them. To put in proper context his actions I should have added that I had taken the same rifle test the day before and scored around 240 points out of a possible 250. My shooting on the day of the incident was possibly going to be around 200 if I kept up my bad shooting. I had also been under his training for some time and he knew my capacity was higher than I was doing. Obviously I was not doing my best before he hit me as I possibly increased my score by 14 points over the next 7 shots.

Finally, training in the military has to be as close to the real thing as possible or it does not relate to how one will think and act during the real thing. Pain, from a lack of sleep, muscle soreness, hunger, combat and many other things is all a part of war. Anyone that cannot handle these things in training will not be able to handle them in a real war situation. One of the goals of Marine Corps Boot Camp is to see if a person has what it takes to take all the discomforts and still perform/win. I want those people next to me on the battle field that can take all sorts of discomforts and still move forward, not because I enjoy pain or punishment but because I know that there will be both during war and I want to know they can withstand it.

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The belittling of people also has a few reasons behind it.

The main model for producing a soldier is from a four-stage leadership/management theory. (It also works remarkably well in any business situation.)

While this may work well in the military as an effective way of controlling the physical force soldiers wield, business is based on mind, not force. I have had a long and very successful business career, completed dozens of major projects on time and on budget, and managed hundreds of people. Not once did I ever belittle anyone.

I cannot possibly do justice to my mentioned theory without writing far more pages here than I care to. Let me simply say that being an authoritarian or coercer means telling people what to do, how to do it, when to do each step, and the consequences for an inadequate job. This is what you have to do when dealing with people who do not know how to accomplish the task and who do not want to do it. Many take this as belittling, and that is how I use the term here.

When it comes to those who call people names and belittle them in that sort of manner, often times it is meant to separate those who have graduated from the course of instruction from those who are taking the course. In other words, you and everybody else who has not passed our tests are inferior to those of us who have. You see the same sort of thing in different situations, such as fraternity initiations. If done right, it can be healthy and lead to esprit de corps; if not, it can lead to mindless collectivism.

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When it comes to those who call people names and belittle them in that sort of manner, often times it is meant to separate those who have graduated from the course of instruction from those who are taking the course. In other words, you and everybody else who has not passed our tests are inferior to those of us who have. You see the same sort of thing in different situations, such as fraternity initiations. If done right, it can be healthy and lead to esprit de corps; if not, it can lead to mindless collectivism.

This has been an intriguing discussion on boot camp training methodology, and many good points have been made. But I feel that one very vital point has been missed in all of the discussion, when it comes to the practice of "braking a person down to build him up." My sister was a Drill Sgt. in the US Army for 6 years. Now she's a Master Sgt. and is heading off to Iraq in October. I've often talked about this topic with her because, for one, I find it hard to imagine my sister yelling at men and women for a living. Her explanation, in addition to some of the theories posited here, was that when soldiers first join the army, they are independant individuals who are used to making decisions on their own, using their own value systems to make judgement calls in order to get through life. And, in the "real" world, we are each entitled to this priveledge. Not so in the military. When it's a matter of life and death, you can't have a bunch of independant people making a variety of independant decisions/emotional responses to traumatic and/or life-threatening events.

This, then, is one of the key elements of this practice--to force soldiers to respect and thoroughly understand the logic and purpose behind moving and acting/reacting as one unit, led by a leader trained to react in such positions. Collectivism it may be, but war and fraternity initiations are two entirely different demons.

This, of course, doesn't take into account every subtle reason behind this action. But, I think it helps to shed additional light on the topic. And also, there's the whole issue of trying to numb people to the sometime horrors behind a job that may require killing or being killed. To properly become a soldier, a certain element of desensitization would certainly be necesary. Even warranted.

Hope this helps.

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The belittling of people also has a few reasons behind it.

The main model for producing a soldier is from a four-stage leadership/management theory. (It also works remarkably well in any business situation.)

While this may work well in the military as an effective way of controlling the physical force soldiers wield, business is based on mind, not force. I have had a long and very successful business career, completed dozens of major projects on time and on budget, and managed hundreds of people. Not once did I ever belittle anyone.

I cannot possibly do justice to my mentioned theory without writing far more pages here than I care to. Let me simply say that being an authoritarian or coercer means telling people what to do, how to do it, when to do each step, and the consequences for an inadequate job. This is what you have to do when dealing with people who do not know how to accomplish the task and who do not want to do it. Many take this as belittling, and that is how I use the term here.

When it comes to those who call people names and belittle them in that sort of manner, often times it is meant to separate those who have graduated from the course of instruction from those who are taking the course. In other words, you and everybody else who has not passed our tests are inferior to those of us who have.

A business manager is not an "authoritarian coercer" and management is not what "belittling" means.

belittle

to regard or portray as less impressive or important than appearances indicate; depreciate; disparage.

synonyms: minimize, decry, deprecate, deride, scorn, dismiss.

To represent or speak of as contemptibly small or unimportant; disparage

Identifying someone's status in a hierarchy of relative accomplishment is not "Yelling and screaming the Drill Instructors got there point across to the new recruits that we were lower than whale crap."

You see the same sort of thing in different situations, such as fraternity initiations. If done right, it can be healthy and lead to esprit de corps; if not, it can lead to mindless collectivism.

Mindless collectivism is not the only harmful possibility and there are better ways to motivate esprit de corps. This reminds me of one of the reasons I never wanted to join a fraternity in college, such as they were at the time.

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Not so in the military. When it's a matter of life and death, you can't have a bunch of independant people making a variety of independant decisions/emotional responses to traumatic and/or life-threatening events.

I think this type of thinking does not work. Tons of independant individuals work together in all sorts of jobs making all sorts of persoanl descisions and still accomplish their goals. The goal should not be to have the people lose their independance but to think long-term and not just short-term. I never gave up any of my independant thoughts, values nor my goals. I learned to work with other people that had the same long-term goal, you cannot acccomplish this by subjugating the individual's goals. The goals of a military leader must duplicate or run parallel with all his subordinates or he will never accomplish his goals.

Just like a sport team or a large corporation every individual does their part of the task/goal that has already been defined and most times trained for. The main reason I see people thinking that a person must lose their individaulism is because most people never think long-term. If a person thinks long-term, most times they will see that their goals and actions will align with the militaries not be in contradiction with them, in a proper context of course.

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Not so in the military. When it's a matter of life and death, you can't have a bunch of independant people making a variety of independant decisions/emotional responses to traumatic and/or life-threatening events.

I think this type of thinking does not work. Tons of independant individuals work together in all sorts of jobs making all sorts of persoanl descisions and still accomplish their goals. The goal should not be to have the people lose their independance but to think long-term and not just short-term. I never gave up any of my independant thoughts, values nor my goals. I learned to work with other people that had the same long-term goal, you cannot acccomplish this by subjugating the individual's goals. The goals of a military leader must duplicate or run parallel with all his subordinates or he will never accomplish his goals.

Just like a sport team or a large corporation every individual does their part of the task/goal that has already been defined and most times trained for. The main reason I see people thinking that a person must lose their individaulism is because most people never think long-term. If a person thinks long-term, most times they will see that their goals and actions will align with the militaries not be in contradiction with them, in a proper context of course.

The issue of making independent decisions always depends on the context. You make fundamental decisions for your life but know that in certain contexts someone else is in charge of shorter term details, still leaving you to use your brain to implement what you have learned. The notion of "breaking people down" to make them obedient robots is much different than that and has lasting bad effects. Someone can follow the orders of a military commander just as he can do a task assigned to him in a business he has voluntarily joined, working with others for common goals, without being "broken down" and shutting down his brain. That is an entirely different matter than learning to tolerate and overcome hardship in order to be ready for battle.

With the high reliance on technology in the military today (and in business for that matter), trying to turn people into robots is self-defeating. In line with that, most military commanders today seem to realize that the volunteer army is superior because it relies on people who want to be there and have long term goals amounting to more than getting out as soon as they can.

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