Fitna

[JRoberts 0]

There is a difference between being against war because free nations do not need to engage in them with other free nations, and yet understanding the fact that war has to happen. Free nations hate war-they take away precious lives and resources that could have furthered our own nation, in terms of productivity and advancement. But a dictator, an evil, must be stopped, because as Ayn Rand stated in the quote you gave, dictators can only survive by our own "charity", or by declaring war and conquering. If we were to do the proper thing and not prop them up, then they would declare war-either on us or our allies (Israel). As such, it is moral to defeat these disgusting creatures and wipe them off the face of the earth, allowing us to continue to live in freedom and in prosperity.

As to the use of nukes, I back Dr. Peikoff in this regards. Nukes are our most powerful weapon, and they do not require the loss of life on our part. Nukes also are so devastating that the use of nukes is a humiliating experience.

Carthage declared war on Rome THREE times. It was only until the third time that, when Rome destroyed every stone of the city of Carthage and sowed their fields with salt, that the Carthaginian empire never, ever, bothered Rome again. Though we only fought Japan once, it was properly understood that an invasion of Japan would cost hundreds of thousands of American lives, and that even then we would have to fight insurgents for years to come. We had to break the pride of Japan-and we did. It is only because we nuked them that now they are one of our closest allies, one of our closest trading partners, and one of the most productive nations on earth.

A war cannot be won with petty battles. We cannot defeat Islam through meekness or "kindness" or "care" for "innocents". We can only defeat Islam by utterly humiliating them-by defeating them with such magnitude and force their those who now chant on the streets "Death to America" are bowing at our feet screaming for forgiveness and mercy. Only then can we cease our attacks.

[JRoberts 0]

EDIT:

The sentence: "by defeating them with such magnitude and force their those who now chant on the streets 'Death to America'" should be changed to "by defeating them with such magnitude and force that those who now chant on the streets 'Death to America'".

[bborg 0]

I see. I'm afraid my problem is that I haven't come to terms with it being a war, which is probably a mistake, I should give the middle eastern situation a lot more thought.

How do Ayn Rand's anti-war comments fit into the whole situation?

Miss Rand called war "the second greatest evil that human societies can perpetrate." The first greatest evil is dictatorship, which starts wars. What we're fighting is a code that demands submission of the will to divine law, which is essentially a religious dictatorship. Its practitioners hold offensive jihad, meaning attacking infidels in their homelands, to be a religious duty, an expression of love for their god, and a guarantee of paradise after death. The 9/11 attacks were the most horrific, but not the first or latest, proof of the violence of Islamic fundamentalism. Muslim clerics and fanatics issue death sentences of the lives of free people whenever their religion, god or prophet is criticized. Leaving Islam is considered an offense warranting execution. Remember the fatwa against Salman Rushdie for writing The Satanic Verses? Similar fatwas against the Danish cartoonists satirizing Muhummad? It isn't just women, children and Christians in the Middle East who suffer from the oppression of this religion. Theo van Gogh was killed in Holland, shot eight times, cut and stabbed by a Muslim for filming "Submission", a screenplay by Ayaan Hirsi Ali criticizing Islam. Writers in the West have to live with the fear that if they speak out against the horrors of this religion, they will be assassinated. We didn't start the war, but we sure as hell better put an end to it.

[Tito 0]

I understand. I take it this means you support the war in Iraq and Afghanistan? What about Vietnam?

Also, here in Britain I was taught that nuclear weapons are so devastatingly polluting that the subsequent radiation would affect us adversely. Is this nonsense?

Uch, I hate my state education, realising that I need to take 11 years worth of learning with a pinch of salt makes me extremely angry.

[bborg 0]

I understand. I take it this means you support the war in Iraq and Afghanistan? What about Vietnam?

Also, here in Britain I was taught that nuclear weapons are so devastatingly polluting that the subsequent radiation would affect us adversely. Is this nonsense?

Uch, I hate my state education, realising that I need to take 11 years worth of learning with a pinch of salt makes me extremely angry.

Wars? Is that what you'd call them? No I don't support what we're doing in Iraq in Afghanistan, which is propping up Islamic governments and calling them "democracies". And it was no better in Vietnam. The parallels are striking. In both cases we sought to defend "self-determination" without first addressing individual rights. What sort of "allies" are we making in Iraq, a country that was (not to excuse its sins) secular under Saddam but now will join the ranks of the "mujahidin" (holy warriors) since we have given Islam authority there? The US government is fighting a war of sacrifice, sacrificing our troops in order to embolden our enemies with praise for their culture and religion. No, you shouldn't confuse my position with a support of Bush's "war".

[Tito 0]

I understand.

Once a war is one, what is it proper to do? Should the wreckage be left to its own paths? Should a new nation based on rights be created? Or should it be declared a brand new state for the republic?

[Tito 0]

I am extremely tired, I should have said "won" not "one"!

[RayK 0]

I understand.

Once a war is one, what is it proper to do? Should the wreckage be left to its own paths? Should a new nation based on rights be created? Or should it be declared a brand new state for the republic?

Without having the full context of the end of a war it would be hard to say what should be done. But, what ever is done it should not be a sacrifice to the citizens of the winning country. It is not our moral purpose to educated every caveman, especially those that do not want to move out of the cave.

[Ed from OC 0]

What innocents do you mean?

The innocents that celebrated the fall of the towers on 9/11 ? The innocents that chant "Death to the USA, Death to Israel?

The innocents that hang people because they are gay, and beat up women because they show their face? The innocents that proclaim their only wish in life is for their son to be a martyr and kill civilians?

There are no innocents under a dictatorship.

I agree with the spirit of your point, but I would exempt two cases of innocents: those resisting and attempting to overthrow the tyrants, and those seeking to escape. The main point is valid: those claiming to be "neutral" or impartial toward the dictatorship share part of the blame, even if they do not actively support their government's tyranny. No innocent man would be willing to look the other way and allow tyrants to rise to power.

[piz 0]

I agree with the spirit of your point, but I would exempt two cases of innocents: those resisting and attempting to overthrow the tyrants, and those seeking to escape. The main point is valid: those claiming to be "neutral" or impartial toward the dictatorship share part of the blame, even if they do not actively support their government's tyranny. No innocent man would be willing to look the other way and allow tyrants to rise to power.

I agree. Still, should those innocents be harmed in a war against a dictatorship, the moral responsibility for that harm nonetheless lies with the dictatorship.

[Tito 0]

The British Foreign Secretary has condemned the film... though he hasn't actually seen it.

https://blogs.fco.gov.uk/roller/miliband/entry/dutch_film

[Bill Bucko 0]

I found another location of the video, in two parts. Let's see how long it remains available there.

This version is slightly truncated. I noticed that the ending, with the tearing of the book, the "Defend our freedoms," and closing credits is missing.

I'm not familiar with "torrents," "bittorent" etc. Is there any way to simply download "Fitna" as an .mpg file? Or, since it was created in Adobe Flash, to simply download the whole movie as an .flv file (as opposed to watching a streaming version on the internet)?

[HeroicLife 0]

I am hosting the file here. You can download the flash movie from my site.

[Bill Bucko 0]

I am hosting the file here. You can download the flash movie from my site.

Thank you! My RealPlayer 8 could not play the .flv file, but when I upgraded to RealPlayer 11 it played perfectly.