Is Ayn Rand dead?

[Henryk 0]

"I will not die, it's the world that will end." This was A. Rand's response, elaborating on Tom Snyder's comments regarding eternity. Interviewed by Tom Snyder in 1979.( It's on YouTube)

Frankly, I don't get it .

[Bold Standard 0]

She means that nobody actually experiences being dead. "The world," meaning one's own private experience of the world, ends at death, so for that person it's as if the universe simply vanishes.

Her view is somewhat reminiscent of Epicurus' view of death, as put forth in his Letter to Menoeceus:

Accustom yourself to believing that death is nothing to us, for good and evil imply the capacity for sensation, and death is the privation of all sentience; therefore a correct understanding that death is nothing to us makes the mortality of life enjoyable, not by adding to life a limitless time, but by taking away the yearning after immortality. For life has no terrors for him who has thoroughly understood that there are no terrors for him in ceasing to live. Foolish, therefore, is the man who says that he fears death, not because it will pain when it comes, but because it pains in the prospect. Whatever causes no annoyance when it is present, causes only a groundless pain in the expectation. Death, therefore, the most awful of evils, is nothing to us, seeing that, when we are, death is not come, and, when death is come, we are not. It is nothing, then, either to the living or to the dead, for with the living it is not and the dead exist no longer.

[Bold Standard 0]

I should have said "I believe that's what she means" instead of speaking for her.. Sorry. ; P

[Betsy Speicher 0]

"I will not die, it's the world that will end." This was A. Rand's response, elaborating on Tom Snyder's comments regarding eternity. Interviewed by Tom Snyder in 1979.( It's on YouTube)

Frankly, I don't get it .

She was talking about how death would look from her point of view.

It is similar to the thought expressed in one of her favorite poems, "The Westerner," by Badger Clark, that "the world began when I was born."

My fathers sleep on the sunrise plains,

And each one sleeps alone.

Their trails may dim to the grass and rains,

For I choose to make my own.

I lay proud claim to their blood and name,

But I lean on no dead kin;

My name is mine for the praise or scorn,

And the world began when I was born

And the world is mine to win.

They built high towns on their old log sills,

Where the great, slow rivers gleamed,

But with new, live rock from the savage hills

I’ll build as they only dreamed.

The smoke scarce dies where the trail camp lies,

Till rails glint down the pass;

The desert springs into fruit and wheat

And I lay the stones of a solid street

Over yesterday’s untrod grass.

I waste no thought on my neighbor’s birth

Or the way he makes his prayer.

I grant him a white man’s room on earth

If his game is only square.

While he plays it straight I’ll call him mate;

If he cheats I drop him flat.

Old class and rank are a worn-out lie,

For all clean men are as good as I,

And a king is only that.

I dream no dreams of a nursemaid State

That will spoon me out my food.

A stout heart sings in the fray with fate

And the shock and sweat are good.

From noon to noon all the earthly boon

That I ask my God to spare

Is a little daily bread in store,

With the room to fight the strong for more,

And the weak shall get their share.

The sunrise plains are a tender haze

And the sunset seas are gray,

But I stand here, where the bright skies blaze

Over me and the big today.

What good to me is a vague “maybe”

Or a mournful “might have been,”

For the sun wheels swift from morn to morn

And the world began when I was born

And the world is mine to win.

[Henryk 0]

Thank you Bold Standard, and thanks Betsy for the poem. I now understand what she meant.

[theDML2112 0]

Interesting thread. My greatest fear IS death. Non-existence scares me to no end. To know that at some time I will not be able to experience anything is a dreadful thought to me. I try not to dwell on it, yet I think those thoughts impede my enjoyment of life. I wonder if any one here can help me frame a proper perspective on death.

Sincerely -

the DML2112

[RayK 0]

Interesting thread. My greatest fear IS death. Non-existence scares me to no end. To know that at some time I will not be able to experience anything is a dreadful thought to me. I try not to dwell on it, yet I think those thoughts impede my enjoyment of life. I wonder if any one here can help me frame a proper perspective on death.

Sincerely -

the DML2112

I would offer that you might question why you have a fear of your own non-existence as you are not going to be here to realize it, just as your were not here to realize the time before you were born. I am not saying that your fear is not real, just trying to point out that when your dead you will not be stating that "this sucks." Life is what is important, and life is what one should be trying to enjoy. In other words death is not a value and one's focus should not be wasted thinking about it anymore than needed, such as wills and life insurance.

[RogerW 0]

Interesting thread. My greatest fear IS death. Non-existence scares me to no end. To know that at some time I will not be able to experience anything is a dreadful thought to me. I try not to dwell on it, yet I think those thoughts impede my enjoyment of life. I wonder if any one here can help me frame a proper perspective on death.

Sincerely -

the DML2112

Good News DML2112, you will never have to experience your own Non-existence.

Question: Before you where born did your non-existence bother you much?

[RogerW 0]

"I will not die, it's the world that will end." This was A. Rand's response, elaborating on Tom Snyder's comments regarding eternity. Interviewed by Tom Snyder in 1979.( It's on YouTube)

Frankly, I don't get it .

Henry, here is a yet unpublished quote from Tori Anderson on the subject,

“The law of identity says there is no existence of ‘you’ apart from your mind and body. When your body and mind cease to function, your consciousness and ‘you’ cease to exist. You can be neither happy nor sad because you will not exist to have those emotions.”

[B. Royce 0]

Interesting thread. My greatest fear IS death. Non-existence scares me to no end. To know that at some time I will not be able to experience anything is a dreadful thought to me. I try not to dwell on it, yet I think those thoughts impede my enjoyment of life. I wonder if any one here can help me frame a proper perspective on death.

Sincerely -

the DML2112

"To know that at some time I will not be able to experience..." At what time, exactly? Since, when it comes, you won't know it, it's the same thing as "no time".

Humorously: I am lying here under the ground and I can't experience anything. Oh, how terrifying! Wait! Terror is a feeling! Hey! I'm alive! Great!-----From the Case of the Quivering Tombstones.

[piz 0]

I'm not afraid of dying, I just don't want to. A lot. I am going to be one angry dude when that time comes.

[Paul's Here 0]

Interesting thread. My greatest fear IS death. Non-existence scares me to no end. To know that at some time I will not be able to experience anything is a dreadful thought to me. I try not to dwell on it, yet I think those thoughts impede my enjoyment of life. I wonder if any one here can help me frame a proper perspective on death.

Sincerely -

the DML2112

Are you afraid of sleep, when you "know that at some time I will not be able to experience anything"?

[B. Royce 0]

I'm not afraid of dying, I just don't want to. A lot. I am going to be one angry dude when that time comes.

If you're in a really weakened state, approaching ceasation of life, you'll be too weak to be angry. If ceasation comes quickly, you won't have time. But don't be angry now; it's a waste of life-time.

[Betsy Speicher 0]

My greatest fear IS death. Non-existence scares me to no end. To know that at some time I will not be able to experience anything is a dreadful thought to me. I try not to dwell on it, yet I think those thoughts impede my enjoyment of life. I wonder if any one here can help me frame a proper perspective on death.

I was once where you are and this is what helped me.

[piz 0]

If you're in a really weakened state, approaching ceasation of life, you'll be too weak to be angry. If ceasation comes quickly, you won't have time. But don't be angry now; it's a waste of life-time.

I'm not angry now, but no matter what my state when it comes, I'll be doing my damnedest to obey Dylan Thomas.

[theDML2112 0]

My greatest fear IS death. Non-existence scares me to no end. To know that at some time I will not be able to experience anything is a dreadful thought to me. I try not to dwell on it, yet I think those thoughts impede my enjoyment of life. I wonder if any one here can help me frame a proper perspective on death.

I was once where you are and this is what helped me.

Thanks Betsy. What great lyrics, and what a great performance of that song. Have always loved Carol.

theDML2112

[A N Other 0]

When I was still going to church, someone asked me how there was any consolation if one did not believe in life after death. I told him even if I die I will never have been alone. What remains is that the greatest value must be identified, chosen, secured and defended in the face of ALL that is against it.

[ruveyn ben yosef 0]

It is not death I fear. It is being there when it happens -- Woody Allen.

[B. Royce 0]

It is not death I fear. It is being there when it happens -- Woody Allen.

Never fear, when it happens you'll disappear!

[bborg 0]

The trick, I think, is not to deny thoughts of death, but to realize this is what makes life so special, because life isn’t guaranteed and it isn’t without an end. If life was a given, no actions would be necessary to sustain it and so no values would be possible. It’s human mortality that gives value to every moment. This helps me to refocus when I start worrying.

As far as death itself, Socrates called it a dreamless sleep, and I don’t think that sounds so bad when you put it that way.

[Arnold 0]

The trick, I think, is not to deny thoughts of death, but to realize this is what makes life so special, because life isn’t guaranteed and it isn’t without an end. If life was a given, no actions would be necessary to sustain it and so no values would be possible. It’s human mortality that gives value to every moment. This helps me to refocus when I start worrying.

As far as death itself, Socrates called it a dreamless sleep, and I don’t think that sounds so bad when you put it that way.

We were all 'dead' before birth. We are just little pieces of the universe that briefly becomes aware of itself, then returns to a non consciousnes state. We will once again be dust. There, does that cheer you up?

[bborg 0]

We were all 'dead' before birth. We are just little pieces of the universe that briefly becomes aware of itself, then returns to a non consciousnes state. We will once again be dust. There, does that cheer you up?

Well, I'm not dust now am I? So long as I'm aware, there's something to celebrate.

[jasonlockwood 0]

Thanks Betsy. What great lyrics, and what a great performance of that song. Have always loved Carol.

theDML2112

Carol Burnett is one of those amazing icons I always admired as a child, and even more so as an adult. Her benevolent spirit always lit up my evenings watching her show.

This a propos of nothing, but every once in a while I find that a "gay icon" like Carol Burnett or Judy Garland actually deserves that moniker.

[Jim A. 0]

The first thing I'd like to say about this topic is: We ain't gettin' out of this alive!!

The second thing I'd like to say is: Death is not something to be afraid of. But do be afraid of not living while you're alive. (And to not live while you're alive is volitional; it is a default on the responsibility of living and the responsibility of pursuing your happiness.)

I'm glad HenryK brought up Ayn Rand's response to Tom Snyder's question about death and the prospect of dying, because her answer sounded like primacy-of-consciousness to me ("...it's the world that will end..."). But Bold Standard's reply to that post really made sense to me, and cleared the issue up for me (thank you, Bold). I can see how her statement on the Tomorrow show would be perfectly consistent with her philosophy and her personality.

I'm glad "The Westerner" was posted. Thank you, Betsy!

To bborg: in Post #20, you say that it's human mortality that makes life so special. I agree. Have you seen the movie, Shadowlands? (I'm not endorsing the philosophy of C.S. Lewis here, but that movie is worth seeing and expresses that very idea.)

(And speaking of movies, I will post a list of what movies I think best deal with the subject of human mortality.)

Incidentally, my present job is the first place I've been where I've had to deal with death rather directly. I'm a nursing assistant at a nursing home, and have had to perform post-mortem care a couple of times so far. During one of those times, when I came upon the resident/patient and found them dead, my first thought when looking at the person's body, since I remembered Ayn Rand's answer to Tom Snyder, was: the universe just ended.

[bborg 0]

To bborg: in Post #20, you say that it's human mortality that makes life so special. I agree. Have you seen the movie, Shadowlands? (I'm not endorsing the philosophy of C.S. Lewis here, but that movie is worth seeing and expresses that very idea.)

I'm sure it does, but I personally don't understand the desire to want to feel such a loss, even through a movie. I'd rather watch something more...happy. After all, the purpose of my reminding myself of the importance of living is to kick myself into action, not to dwell.