Sexual interests?

[Free Capitalist 0]

(Don't read the lyrics. The song will affect you that much more when you don't know what words are next to come.)

[Ed from OC 0]

All I can say is: get over it.

You have some good advice, but I quoted this because you should really stop saying it. Maybe it worked for you, but it is generally a crude and ineffective motivator.

"Get over it" is blunt and to the point. I don't want to cloud the issue or indulge the notion that it is an acceptable character trait by using some other phrase. I used it because it is effective in getting attention.

I could have written:

"I'm sorry to hear about your problem with shyness. Yes, it's very tough for you. I'm sure there's a wonderful woman just waiting for a swell guy like you to come along. I know you have your particular interests, and they don't involve many women, so your chances aren't so good. But stick to your guns, keep doing those things you like, and don't give up hope. After all, the world is full of all sorts of women."

What does that tell you? Absolutely nothing. It is feel-good pap to let someone wallow in their misery. It gives the illusion that not working to improve your situation and behavior is not going to impact your pursuit of romance.

My point in using that phrase is to focus on the nature of the problem, and what needs to be done. At one level, the answer really is that simple. Shyness can be built into a huge psychological barrier. It may take several tries, lots of work, and testing different strategies, but at the end of the day, the goal should be to get over it. Once you overcome it, you'll find that it wasn't nearly as bad as you thought it would be. It's akin to Miss Rand's description of the nature of evil: something thought to be big and menacing, but in reality is small.

As far as motivation is concerned, I see the potential sexual relationships as sufficient for that. They got me motivated to get off my butt and try new things. Surprisingly, when I went to where women spend their time, and learned to enjoy the things they do, and got good at them, and got used to spending time around beautiful women and talking to them, it became much easier to get dates.

[Ed from OC 0]

That said there is no avoiding the fact that at that last moment before the action can be taken that is what has to happen, at least in the instance of that action. A person doesn't just "get over it" period, but each time. It takes a long period of time of introspection, and continual torture of gradually putting oneself more and more out there.

The Nike slogan ("Just Do It") is apt. It's so easy for a person to rationalize and make excuses for not acting. When that happens, the solution is to stop that line of thinking and act.

Suppose a shy guy sees a pretty girl across a dance floor. He's interested enough to want to meet her.

Then he thinks: oh, she must be with someone. No way can she be here alone. I'm not wearing my best shirt, and I could use a haircut. And I'm just a beginning dancer anyway. I'd probably just make a fool of myself if I tried to dance with her.

And so on. Yet, he doesn't know anything about her. His inner monologue is entirely filled with self-defeating, self-deprecating comments that fuel his insecurity and damage his self-esteem. The mere act of thinking along these lines builds up his shyness. Shutting down that line of thinking -- such as acting before his thoughts spiral out of control -- will minimize the shyness.

Suppose instead he thinks: Oh, she must be with someone. No way can she be here alone. But she's alone now. Well, I can stand here and debate it, or I can just ask her to dance.

And then he walks over and asks. As far as the shyness issue is concerned, whether she's with someone or not, or how well the dance goes, is irrelevant. In the end, she doesn't matter. The shyness issue is all about him. Which is why he should just do it -- or: get over it.

[Free Capitalist 0]

You can do it.

I could have written:

"I'm sorry to hear about your problem with shyness."

Get over it.

Good cop, bad cop?

[bborg 0]

I could have written:

"I'm sorry to hear about your problem with shyness. Yes, it's very tough for you. I'm sure there's a wonderful woman just waiting for a swell guy like you to come along. I know you have your particular interests, and they don't involve many women, so your chances aren't so good. But stick to your guns, keep doing those things you like, and don't give up hope. After all, the world is full of all sorts of women."

No, you could have written what you just wrote in the post following this one, which I thought was fine. The point isn't to be "blunt", but to communicate your reasons. Sometimes good reasons are blunt, but usually they require more than one-liners you know will just sound annoying. The time and space that was wasted by yourself and others explaining what you meant is pretty good proof of that. As it turns out only those who knew you or who didn't need the advice, like Alan and Ray, understood what you were trying to say. I just thought you were being condescending, as I think some others did.

[Paul's Here 0]

More food for thought: Practice your kissing.

What Women and Men Want in a Kiss

• - About 50% of men would have sex without kissing their partner first; only 10% of women would do so.
  - Men want to kiss someone based on their perception of facial attraction, women focus more on a man’s teeth in deciding if they would like to kiss him.
  - Overall, kissing is more important for women than for men in having a satisfying sexual experience.
  - Overall men prefer wetter kisses with more tongue than do women.
  - Both sexes preferred more tongue with long-term partners.
  - Men are more than twice as likely to have sex with a bad kisser than are women.
  - 59% of men and 66% of women have been put off by a potential partner’s kiss at some point in their romantic lives.
  

The authors conclude that women emphasize kissing as a means of evaluating a potential mate and to monitor the ongoing status of a relationship. Men employ kissing as a way to get sex and to affect conflict resolution.

[bborg 0]

Kissing, huh? Not much I can do about that. I can practice on my hand, but there's no way to know if a girl would like it. So she's just going to have to put up with that until I get better.

[Betsy Speicher 0]

Kissing, huh? Not much I can do about that. I can practice on my hand, but there's no way to know if a girl would like it. So she's just going to have to put up with that until I get better.

That's the spirit!

[Go 4 TLI 0]

More food for thought: Practice your kissing.

What Women and Men Want in a Kiss

• - Men want to kiss someone based on their perception of facial attraction, women focus more on a man’s teeth in deciding if they would like to kiss him.
  

That's good to hear. I've spent the last five months on my back with some sadist my dentist drilling into my head to make my choppers look better. And that's just the prerequisite for long overdue railroad tracks. One reason I rarely smile -- at least among strangers -- is that my mouth was plain butt-ugly. And let's face it, ugly trumps shy. Well, as per this year's New Year's resolution, that is finally changing.

Oh, and for the record I am shy, 42 years old, and have never had a girlfriend. I am also getting over whatever the hell it is I am supposed to be getting over.

[pkrembs 0]

re: get over it.

It is ridiculously far from that simple.

Shyness is a psychological state driven by fear of lack of acceptance or fear of a negative opinion and the more you value and respect someone (or are attracted to them in case of romance) the more it may manifest itself (because you care more). It is that fear you have to work on (part of it maybe working on self acceptance) if you want to overcome shyness.

That's quite a sweeping indictment of something that is very nuanced and could be based on a whole host of an individual's personality attributes or psychological condition. Are you a psychologist?

[bborg 0]

That's quite a sweeping indictment of something that is very nuanced and could be based on a whole host of an individual's personality attributes or psychological condition. Are you a psychologist?

I don't think it's "sweeping" or an "indictment". I know from my own experience that shyness is a fear of how the person will react. The reaction you're worried about may vary from person to person, and the reasons for the fear may vary. But anyone who has experienced this at some point can introspect and see what kind of emotion it is, not merely psychologists.

[bborg 0]

For me, it isn’t fear of a negative reaction exactly. I’m not afraid that she’ll make fun of me or snap at me. I think it would be easier if that were the case, because it’s so easily observed that most people aren’t like that. My fear is that I’ll never connect with someone, and every time I have feelings that aren’t returned that’s like a confirmation of the fear. When I see someone I’m interested in, I feel the disappointment looming overhead and the dread of having to face a lifetime of that. So what I worry about is the stuff that probably will happen: that she’s married or not interested, or after putting in the courage and effort I'll discover I don't like her afterall. That's the kind of stuff that makes me want to give up, and if I decide not to approach a girl it's because I think I'm protecting myself. I realize that's wrong, and it's a self-fulfilling prophesy, but it's a deeply automatized response that is very difficult to shake off - especially in my case because the only way it's going to be disproven is with success.

[pkrembs 0]

That's quite a sweeping indictment of something that is very nuanced and could be based on a whole host of an individual's personality attributes or psychological condition. Are you a psychologist?

I don't think it's "sweeping" or an "indictment". I know from my own experience that shyness is a fear of how the person will react. The reaction you're worried about may vary from person to person, and the reasons for the fear may vary. But anyone who has experienced this at some point can introspect and see what kind of emotion it is, not merely psychologists.

It is a sweeping indictment, because implicit in that statement was the judgment that everyone who is shy is controlled by a fear of what other might think of them. That's just....incorrect. I do not care what others (strangers in social situations) think about me, as a general rule. However, I have anxiety problems (which are the result of biochemical functions). These manifest themselves in many different ways for many different people, including a worry about situations or objects that have nothing to do with others negative evaluations of you. Nor is it a matter that many people can just "get over." Many people with this condition are quite rational and functioning, but because of other factors either have difficulty overcoming anxiety or are completely crippled by it.

[bborg 0]

It is a sweeping indictment, because implicit in that statement was the judgment that everyone who is shy is controlled by a fear of what other might think of them. That's just....incorrect. I do not care what others (strangers in social situations) think about me, as a general rule. However, I have anxiety problems (which are the result of biochemical functions). These manifest themselves in many different ways for many different people, including a worry about situations or objects that have nothing to do with others negative evaluations of you. Nor is it a matter that many people can just "get over." Many people with this condition are quite rational and functioning, but because of other factors either have difficulty overcoming anxiety or are completely crippled by it.

Well, if it's primarily chemical then it's not an issue for psychology. Then what happens is you try out different meds until you find the right one, and then you're perfectly normal. I would point out, however, that the existence of a chemical imbalance does not prove that the issue is not emotional and under the individual's control. Consciousness has causal efficacy. We know it affects the functioning of the brain because its commands can move the body. We do not know all of its effects, and they may include changes in neurochemical balances. Is the chemical functioning the cause of the emotions, or the other way around? It may work both ways.

[Cometmaker 0]

It is a sweeping indictment, because implicit in that statement was the judgment that everyone who is shy is controlled by a fear of what other might think of them. That's just....incorrect. I do not care what others (strangers in social situations) think about me, as a general rule. However, I have anxiety problems (which are the result of biochemical functions). These manifest themselves in many different ways for many different people, including a worry about situations or objects that have nothing to do with others negative evaluations of you. Nor is it a matter that many people can just "get over." Many people with this condition are quite rational and functioning, but because of other factors either have difficulty overcoming anxiety or are completely crippled by it.

No distinctions have been made in this thread between introversion, social anxiety/phobia and shyness, nor physiological and genetic links. The definition referred to shyness, and that is what various posting members including yourself have referred to. The fact that you are now discussing everything but shyness does not turn any previous posts in this thread into a sweeping indictment when you have previously not distinguished the general types of avoidance.

[Betsy Speicher 0]

My fear is that I’ll never connect with someone, and every time I have feelings that aren’t returned that’s like a confirmation of the fear. When I see someone I’m interested in, I feel the disappointment looming overhead and the dread of having to face a lifetime of that.

How realistic is that expectation?

Sometimes we give metaphysical significance to past history when it is possible that things can change -- particularly if we can choose to change them.

[bborg 0]

How realistic is that expectation?

Sometimes we give metaphysical significance to past history when it is possible that things can change -- particularly if we can choose to change them.

It's not about whether dying alone is realistic, it's about whether finding someone is realistic. I just don't have the experience yet to say that it is, with confidence. Of course, I see people in relationships all over the place, but their values are different. Also I need a woman I can talk naturally with, and naturally for me is not what's natural for most people. She doesn't have to be a philosopher, but frankly I grew up starved for people to talk to about the things I was interested in and I really want that in a partner. I could probably do without it for a short time, but intellectual conversation for me is like sex to most people (not saying anything bad about sex!). I practically measure the days since the last time I had a really rewarding conversation with someone. Even my casual chatting can get pretty heady. Technically I could get that from anyone, but I always pictured having a partner I could relate to intellectually. I think to the average person that would sound really conceited, but maybe you or others here would understand.

So the point is, the chance does seem pretty low that even changing everything in my control, that I would find what I'm really looking for. Who you find and when is a crapshoot, and when you add in values winning seems like a miracle.

[Betsy Speicher 0]

It's not about whether dying alone is realistic, it's about whether finding someone is realistic.

All one needs to pursue any value is knowledge that it is possible. That's realistic enough to proceed.

I just don't have the experience yet to say that it is, with confidence. Of course, I see people in relationships all over the place, but their values are different. Also I need a woman I can talk naturally with, and naturally for me is not what's natural for most people. She doesn't have to be a philosopher, but frankly I grew up starved for people to talk to about the things I was interested in and I really want that in a partner. I could probably do without it for a short time, but intellectual conversation for me is like sex to most people (not saying anything bad about sex!). I practically measure the days since the last time I had a really rewarding conversation with someone. Even my casual chatting can get pretty heady. Technically I could get that from anyone, but I always pictured having a partner I could relate to intellectually. I think to the average person that would sound really conceited, but maybe you or others here would understand.

We sure do! I can't tell you how many single women I know who complain that all the men they know are such idiots! All they want to talk about is sports and all they want to do is get them into bed. Where is a guy they can talk about serious issues for hours with?

So the point is, the chance does seem pretty low that even changing everything in my control, that I would find what I'm really looking for.

Low chance = some chance = possible! Considering the huge payoff, it is certainly worth a shot.

[jasonlockwood 0]

Another thing to remember is self confidence is always an attractive quality. If you stick to your strengths when meeting women, as opposed to worrying about your weaknesses, the possibility of meeting an interesting woman goes up.

I had a relationship end last year and that was difficult for me. I recognize those times when people are not on the top of their game because I experienced it myself. But once I got past the mourning of what no longer was, I was able to be the sunny guy I usually am. And it was around this time I met someone interesting.

Keep your chin up.

[Free Capitalist 0]

She doesn't have to be a philosopher, but frankly I grew up starved for people to talk to about the things I was interested in and I really want that in a partner. I could probably do without it for a short time

This to me is the most important part of what you said. Howcome you equate a short time with zero time? Even if it's for a short time, you're experiencing happiness which is lacking for you right, and that's nothing to scoff at. Even if just for a short time, you're acquiring most invaluable experience of what women are like, what they want (will men ever figure out?), what they're interested in, what they can be realistically expected to be interested in, etc. As of now it seems you're scared off by a hypothetical, a hypothetical you haven't even a personal experience of to help you in matters of evidence on the subject.

[Ed from OC 0]

So the point is, the chance does seem pretty low that even changing everything in my control, that I would find what I'm really looking for. Who you find and when is a crapshoot, and when you add in values winning seems like a miracle.

If it's a matter of meeting enough women, and playing the odds, then the best option is to get out there and meet many of them. Contrast a "rifle" and a "shotgun" approach. With a rifle, you take your time and wait for the perfect moment to pull the trigger, and have everything riding on that one shot. If it misses, you get nothing, which puts a lot of pressure on yourself to make that one shot count: is this The One? What if I miss? Will I ever get a chance again? What if this is the wrong one and I make a mistake? What if the gun jams and I miss the one chance in a lifetime?

By contrast, a shotgun can aim at more than one target at a time. You don't have that much riding on any single shot. If this or that particular shot misses, you've got plenty of other chances. You can relax and let things fall where they may. And if you find that something clicks, you can then focus on getting to know that one lady. But you always know in the back of your mind that there are plenty of other women out there, and if things don't work out, you can move on.

Notice the problems inherent in the first approach. First there's the perfectionism issue. Then there's another issue. If you decide to wait until you meet the girl of your dreams before pursuing her, how will you know when you've met that person? You have to already know her really well to know that she's the perfect girl for you, which means knowing her in advance of getting to know her. It effectively will also rule out all women.

In reality, there are all sorts of interesting women out there. You don't know in advance where they are and which ones. You have to get out and look. If someone seems interesting in some way, then find out more. Sometimes they're more interesting than your initial impression suggests, and sometimes not.

The point is to get out there and look, ask, and learn. Be an explorer into new and exciting areas of life. Even if you aren't attracted to someone, it can be interesting to just talk to someone completely different from you. I get surprised all the time by the different ways people act and think.

A more general comment:

I think some people misuse Objectivism to filter their values, in a bad sense. They purge their lives of things that aren't 100% in agreement with the philosophy. Instead of using the philosophy to broaden and enhance the range of values open to them, they narrow it until there's very little left. It may be well-intentioned, based on some notion that ideological purity leads to happiness, or that it would be immoral to enjoy a "mixed case," and so on.

This makes modern life seem tragic, as we are surrounded by ignorance and evasion, vice and force. But in fact the modern world is a mix, with its virtues and glories to be celebrated as strongly -- nay, more so -- than its vices are to be condemned. Such an outlook on life necessarily reinforces the sense that the odds are against us, and that non-Objectivists cannot be a significant value to us.

I add this comment because I've seen several people over the years (including myself a long time ago) cut out perfectly good values because of a mistaken notion of what it means to be a good Objectivist, and of how to pursue values. for instance, it would be easy to disqualify a woman as a potential girlfriend if she made some comment about evil corporations. It would be context dropping to dismiss her solely for that comment. A better approach would be to build up a good image of who she is as a person and see how that comment fits in. Maybe she's a political activist for Hugo Chavez. Or she may be a normal American person with (God forbid!) a confused view of politics. The best way to find out is not to rationalistically deduce what her philosophy "must be," but rather to simply ask. And ask some more. And ask some more.

And so it is with dating. I think it's a mistake to attempt to "pre-qualify" someone outside of a very limited number of "must have" and "deal breaker" traits. Even then, one has to be careful to correctly identify those traits. And if the list is too long, forget about meeting someone who would qualify; as the list grows, the field narrows. Better to take some chances and let the chips fall where they may. It's ok to make mistakes. You may end up wasting an hour over coffee, or a Saturday night, with someone totally wrong, but so what? You've now identified one more woman that YOU don't want to spend time with; you rejected her, not the reverse. That can be also good for your self-esteem. (I don't want this last to be misunderstood; I don't mean playing power games, in a different sense "conquering" as many women as possible. Rather, you've implicitly told yourself that you value yourself enough to not settle for just anyone; you've gotten to know someone a little bit and it became obvious that you don't enjoy them.)

So, once again, I suggest just getting out there and talking to women. One of them will surprise you, but I won't tell you which one. You'll have to discover it for yourself.

P.S. for bborg: because you love the phrase, here it is once more: GET OVER IT !!!

[Free Capitalist 0]

By contrast, a shotgun can aim at more than one target at a time. You don't have that much riding on any single shot. If this or that particular shot misses, you've got plenty of other chances. You can relax and let things fall where they may. And if you find that something clicks, you can then focus on getting to know that one lady. But you always know in the back of your mind that there are plenty of other women out there, and if things don't work out, you can move on.

But, you have to be a lot closer to the action. Isn't that right? Have to put your neck in the noose, on the chopping block if you will. Which is where the men have always had it since the beginning of time. And there's no use bewailing it, just have to get that shotgun and run charging into the thick of it. Hiding and carefully scouting with that sniper gun from a mile away will leave a man cold and lonely in his hideout.

[RickWilmes 0]

P.S. for bborg: because you love the phrase, here it is once more: GET OVER IT !!!

I haven't been able to keep up with this thread but here is how to GET OVER IT. Circa 1991, my roomates and I would go to the local pick up bars and play what we called the "Turn down game." Each of us would contribute $10(four of us) to a pot($40 total). The idea of the game was to approach women and ask them to dance. At the end of the night who ever got turned down the most would win the pot. Now if you wanted to win the money, than you would have to approach the women who were the most attractive. As Bborg has pointed out not an easy task for somebody who was shy. However, if you got turned down than you were one step closer to winning the money. If the woman said yes than all of a sudden you're dancing with an attractive woman and your fear or shyness has slowly started to disappear and your confidence has improved.

Incidentally, during this period in my life I was attracted to a co-worker at work. I was attracted to her smile and long blonde curly hair. She was attending the same University that my brother(one of my roommates at the time) was attending. One evening I was supposed to meet my brother at the dance his Univeristy was hosting. When I walked into the building, where the dance was being hosted, I practically ran into my attractive co-worker. I think we both asked each other to dance at the same time. I still remember her grabbing my shirt and pulling me onto the dance floor. We have, basicall, been together ever since. Dating several years, living together for several more and getting married in 1999. We now have a two year old daughter. Getting back to the dance, the next morning when I made it home my brother asked what happened and where I had been. Apparently, he never bothered to look for me on the dance floor and ended up leaving because he couldn't find me.

So if you want to get over your shyness, play the "Turn down game" with your friends. It worked for me. However, I must point out that if you think meeting women is frustrating; living with them redefines the word.

[Stussy88 0]

So if you want to get over your shyness, play the "Turn down game" with your friends. It worked for me. However, I must point out that if you think meeting women is frustrating; living with them redefines the word.

I don't want to get all 'onty Python' on you, but add the ever calm and relaxed middle eastern temperament into the mix (you know the one that has made the middle east a haven of peace and enlightenment for 3,000 years) and you'll know frustration.

[Stussy88 0]

Bborg, I may not be the best person to give advice, but an easy approach, or so I used to find it anyway when I was playing the game involves the business card.

Just see the woman you would like to date and say something along the lines of

"You look really beautiful and I'd like to take you to dinner, if you'd like to come, you'll find my e-mail on the card" and then make a discreet exit.

Try it with a confident smile (even if you have to fake it) don't gabble the words, and worst case, you never hear from her, best case, you get the first date. (I was going to say first base, but that means something different in US culture doesn't it ).

If you feel really bold, try it when women are in a group because the one who you want to date will (I think) be really pleased that you have selected her, even if she's not going to call you, so hostility or a law suit is unlikley and she can always just not call. Be prepared for a bit of giggling, though!

If you want to boost your confidence, a psychological trick I used to use, was to imagine myself to be Rhett from "Gone with the Wind" I know it sounds strange, but it really works.

I probably got maybe 10 different dates with this tactic including with a couple of women who I thought would never call in a million years.