Sexual interests?

[Betsy Speicher 0]

Yes, but not as his prime motivation as it is for a woman. For most men, their value center is their career, while for most women, their value center is the man they love.

I don't have a clue what this means. What do you mean, he's their "value center"?

A value center is at the pinnacle of a person's hierarchy of values.

At Ford Hall Forum, someone asked Ayn Rand what, of all the things she had accomplished in her life, she was proudest of. Did she say Atlas Shrugged? "The Objectivist Ethics?" No.

She answered, "Marrying Frank O'Connor."

[Betsy Speicher 0]

Right now that means getting more friends, which has been on my todo list but is easier said than done. My current ones in the area are married now and do not socialize much anymore.

Married friends do wonderful "fix-ups." Just ask.

[bborg 0]

Married friends do wonderful "fix-ups." Just ask.

Honestly, I think I'm on my own.

[Carlos 0]

Bborg, why are you even worrying about picking up signs? If you are attracted to a woman, act on the attraction: talk to her, be friendly, ask her out for coffee, etc. Whatever you do, don't be shy--and I'm saying this from personal experience--or you could miss out on what could be the greatest romantic experience of your life. Unless she is some fake ditz, she will let you know bluntly whether your advances are well received or not.

Shyness is a romance killer, and you've got to learn to deal with it. I think shyness has been package-dealed with 'independence' or other synonyms to make it sound a more benevolent thing than it really is. In reality it is a lack of assertiveness in social situations, and I'm sorry but if a woman perceives a man as not being assertive that will destroy any desire for him.

I used to have a bad problem with shyness that came about from observing ego-less idiots in high school aggressively pursuing women so they could have sex with them (then dump them of course); I incorrectly associated the assertive pursuit of a man for a woman with something bad, and no surprise, running on that notion I had literally zero dates for several years.

[Carlos 0]

Married friends do wonderful "fix-ups." Just ask.

Honestly, I think I'm on my own.

You'll be fine; just keep your eyes open and pursue the value when you see her

[bborg 0]

Jordan,

Thanks for your response, but what you describe is not shyness as I experience it and I don’t think you’ve read what I’ve written in this thread. If I thought that mentioning my shyness would be interpreted as an excuse for inaction, I would never have done so. I mentioned it only to highlight what I see as a double-standard, which I’ve discussed to death and I’m tired of talking about. I acknowledge that shyness is a problem to work past and not a sign of independence. I never believed that; shyness is a sometimes crippling obstacle to enjoying life, and although I am not saying that it is not solvable, I don’t like it when people refer to it so dismissively. I've made a lot of progress over the years, but it is still a huge hassle I have to deal with.

Also, my problem is not simply a matter of pursuing women I'm interested in, as I've just said. There's no one to pursue! I had a couple lunch dates a few years ago, and that's about it recently. Opportunities for me just do not pop up all the time, I am not in school (on a campus anyway), I am not in a club where I interact with other young people, and I have few friends, who are busy most of the time. There is no one at work my age. Also, I have to devote a lot of my time now to studying. Asking me to "keep [my] eyes open" doesn't really help. It's ok, though, I didn't post here for advice.

[piz 0]

I'd just like to thank you, piz, for sharing that.

Glad to (as difficult as it was )

My problem at the moment is that I do not come in regular contact with any eligible women around my age.

Ditto for me. As a sub teacher, 99% of the single women I encounter are approximately 30 years younger than I am. Needless to say, they're not in the "potential romance" category. Of course, if I could go back to high school...

So for me, taking the initiative means talking to strangers during one or maybe two encounters with them, based on nothing but their appearance and demeanor. Women do not generally initiate any sort of conversation with me out of the blue, which puts the entire pressure on me to do it and to figure out how to turn one meeting into more. It's practically impossible to get a date that way.

If I don't have a specific reason that's not "meeting them," I won't start conversations with strangers, ever, women or men. That's the shyness, although it's reached the point where the notion never even occurs to me (thus I don't have to shy away from it). I'll respond if someone starts talking to me - not long ago I had a lovely conversation with a pair of grandmotherly ladies in the checkout line at WalMart, which started when one of them asked about something in my cart - but initiation is not in my repertoire.

This is why bars (not generally regarded as good places to meet romantic partners anyway) have always been completely out of the question for me. I simply wouldn't speak to anyone there whom I didn't already know. A couple of years ago I went to a nearby tavern to see a local band I'd been interested in hearing. After I'd been there a while, a woman started up a conversation with me. She was nice enough, and I maintained a calm exterior and managed a reasonable conversation, but the whole time my mind was screaming, "What's going on?!?! Why is she talking to me?!?! What do I talk about?!?!" I very nearly prayed for the ordeal to end, and eventually I said goodnight and bolted for the door. Later when I described it to a friend, she said, "Yep. She was trying to pick you up." So I'd more than totally missed that. And it's worse - my friend also said, "Oh, and when she did that one thing, it meant she wanted you to dance with her." WHAT?!?!?!?! Sing along with me to the famous tune: "Clue free! As free as a mo-ron...'

[~Sophia~ 0]

Sometimes the girl would send out what I would call signals, but they invariably came along with conversation. There would be a reason (real or invented) for her to talk to me, and she would. Not that she would become the pursuer, though once in a while a girl would ask me out.** Rather, it would in effect begin the above process (at some mixture of steps 2 & 3), with me taking the lead from then on if I was interested. The point is that she wouldn't just toss a bunch of nonverbal things in my general direction and hope that the target would notice it had been aimed at. In fact, I can't remember ever noticing such signals from any girl who did only that.

The list of non-verbals signs should not be considered as comprehensive of all signs. It is just what I was able to quickly find on the internet and it is useful to know because a lot is communicated non-verbally (by both sexes, in fact) unconsciously.

The approach a woman would take will depend on a situation. If she knows a man socially and has an opportunity to interact with him with some frequency it will probably be a combination of verbal and non-verbal signs. If she likes him the non-verbal will happen more so naturally. Verbally, in a group setting, may be for example, showing interest/attention, in a conversation, above the interest shown to other single men around.

Overall, what you have described is a very good (I would say often preferable by most) approach to meeting people.

The reason I mention the time frame above is that the way women sending signals has been presented here sounds to me (and I could, of course, be wrong) like there's a very short window of opportunity for a man, on the order of at most a few hours, or perhaps a few interactions.

There is no rule when it comes to the time frame. It will depend on how invested she is. In case of a stranger that investment is low, generally. If it is someone she knows fairly well, she has more data to go on in terms of knowing that it is worth to stick around. Contextual judgment like any other.

Hope that helps.

[bborg 0]

Glad to (as difficult as it was )

That’s interesting. It’s not difficult for me to talk about it. What’s difficult is that most people are unaware of what shyness means and are often not sensitive to the issue or sympathetic at all. So when I have tried to talk about it with people in the past, they just dismiss it and tell me I need to get over it. Especially because I’m a guy and guys are supposed to be assertive (which makes me feel even worse). This is not a shot at Jordan, who was only saying the same things I’ve heard a million times before from other well-meaning people. Anyway, the responses I get make me feel like I’m whining, so I’ve tried more and more not to talk about it.

I won't start conversations with strangers, ever, women or men. That's the shyness, although it's reached the point where the notion never even occurs to me (thus I don't have to shy away from it). I'll respond if someone starts talking to me - not long ago I had a lovely conversation with a pair of grandmotherly ladies in the checkout line at WalMart, which started when one of them asked about something in my cart - but initiation is not in my repertoire.

I'm pretty much the same way.

This is why bars (not generally regarded as good places to meet romantic partners anyway) have always been completely out of the question for me.

Same here.

A couple of years ago I went to a nearby tavern to see a local band I'd been interested in hearing. After I'd been there a while, a woman started up a conversation with me. She was nice enough, and I maintained a calm exterior and managed a reasonable conversation, but the whole time my mind was screaming, "What's going on?!?! Why is she talking to me?!?! What do I talk about?!?!" I very nearly prayed for the ordeal to end, and eventually I said goodnight and bolted for the door. Later when I described it to a friend, she said, "Yep. She was trying to pick you up." So I'd more than totally missed that. And it's worse - my friend also said, "Oh, and when she did that one thing, it meant she wanted you to dance with her." WHAT?!?!?!?! Sing along with me to the famous tune: "Clue free! As free as a mo-ron...'

There have been exceptions, but my first impulse is to not say anything especially if the girl is attractive, and even if she smiles at me. Some people here may not get that. It’s when the potential to gain a huge value is so high that I have to fight harder to maintain control and not retreat into a shell. I remember back in high school, I was hanging out with some friends at one of their houses and a friend of a friend hopped over to the couch I was on and sat right next to me and smiled at me. We were actually touching, she sat so close. Guess what I did? I adjusted so we weren't touching. Even though I always thought she was cute and was interested in her, what I wanted to do was run away. After exchanging a few words, she got up and sat back with her friend. I know it might be hard to believe, but it didn't even occur to me that she was scouting my interest, and I had given her the exact wrong answer. And this was not some subtle signal, either. *smacks forehead* Believe me, I've been there.

[Stussy88 0]

...

According to current custom, if they "go dutch" it is not considered a romantic move but if one pays for the other, it is.

...

In my expreience, there's nothing unromantic about a dutch date (in which both people pay their own way). In fact, I've had plenty of first dates (some of which have led to more) on which the woman has insisted on paying her share of the expenses. I find this attractive, because I interpret it as meaning she is looking for a relationship of equals, which is what I want too.

Who should pay for a particular date? The answer is a matter of personal preference.

My accursed British upbringing means I pay

Only today Mrs Stussy88 was commenting how nice this particular Chanel ring was.... her birthday is coming up....

[Paul's Here 0]

Question to piz and bborg.

Based upon everything you've stated, don't you think a reasonable conclusion to draw is that shyness is not a valuable personality trait to possess? You've demonstrated quite nicely that it interferes with your ability to interact with women, and you should be aware by now that most women don't value shyness. So why not take action to overcome and change the character trait that is harming or inhibiting you? Psychological change is possible, and learned traits can be changed. As someone who was very shy as a teenager and into my early 20s, I can testify that it is possible to change traits. And Objectivism provides an excellent means by identifying the relationship between morality and motivation, and by identifying the relationship between morality and causality. This must be applied to your personal, concrete values.

This does not mean that you look for "signals" but that you act to achieve your values and not wait for others to act on your bahalf. It will take a lot of effort and may take years, but at least you'll have something to do waiting for Mrs. Right to come along.

[alann 0]

Piz, What you've described comes pretty close to my experience. I have never developed the pick-up artist skills that are touted in magazines and recent reality tv and trotted out in bars. I tried that once or twice and it never led to anything I wanted to pursue. Before I spend an evening with her alone, I want to know more about a woman than I can find out without some kind of conversation or observation in action.

What you are describing involves putting yourself into an environment in which these interactions are possible. Bryson has said that he is not currently in that context, in that environment. That's not uncommon. Meeting someone with common values doesn't mean meeting someone who does the same kind of work or takes the same classes.

Ed of OC got jumped on for rude oversimplification when he said "Get over it" and suggested taking dance classes. Piz, on the other hand, more gently demonstrates exactly the same context: Put yourself where you have a chance of meeting the "right" woman. The bar, the grocery store, a park, a these are not the right place for this kind of meet. They are too general, for one thing, to "pre-qualify" the woman as having similar interests or values. The bar is a hunting ground for the "pros," who want to find a sexual encounter, not a soul-mate, and those who want to have a nice conversation, to learn about each other, need a better GPS unit - they're in the wrong place. Again, a grocery store as a venue, for another example, doesn't pre-qualify the potential mate at all: "Let me see, would the woman I want to spend the rest of my life with buy her fish frozen, or out of the fresh seafood case?" (This might work for a student at the French Culinary Institute, though). Well, it can disqualify, if she grabs National Enquirer and Star and stacks them on the conveyor belt, on top of her case of Twinkies.

If you have an interest that implicitly qualifies these potential partners and if it has a social outlet, make use of that. As a classical singer, just getting cast in an opera or a concert means up to a month or so with a group of people with at least one important interest in common. In this particular case, that's not my primary goal, but it's a significant side-benefit. Ballroom dance lessons put you in contact with the opposite sex in a format in which small talk is easy and natural. In this case, rather than adding to the stress, it generally relieves the tension. The physical proximity makes both parties want to talk, want to know something about the other person. If you love the dancing itself, then this is a common interest. Otherwise, though, people who take it up cover a wide range of interests, but many are there to meet people.

The point is to find a social context that enhances the chances that you will meet someone of interest and share the common value and the opportunity to talk about it. And practicing overcoming the barrier to free communication is a huge benefit. In the right context, a shy person can be confident and expressive.

As far as the wider argument, I think PhilO has hit the nail on the head. 10,000 years of humanity and many different cultures, the enlightenment, Magna Carta, the Declaration of Independence, Ayn Rand; and the dynamic between men and women, in the sexual/romantic context has remained essentially the same. Maybe the behavior that has to change is not that of all those women. I have more to say on that, but this is too long already.

[bborg 0]

Question to piz and bborg.

Based upon everything you've stated, don't you think a reasonable conclusion to draw is that shyness is not a valuable personality trait to possess? You've demonstrated quite nicely that it interferes with your ability to interact with women, and you should be aware by now that most women don't value shyness. So why not take action to overcome and change the character trait that is harming or inhibiting you?

Gee, ya think? I’ve given you a snapshot, nothing more. I’ve actually made a lot of progress, which began with learning how to talk to people in general. I don’t think it’s fair of you to assume from these anecdotes that we somehow value shyness or that we haven’t made efforts to overcome it. This is exactly why I didn’t want to talk about this earlier.

[bborg 0]

Alan, your advice is good and I've received it before, but the problem is actually finding that social interest. Joining a club or something just to meet people would be a waste of time, if I didn't enjoy what I was doing. The key is finding a hobby that you love that can bring you in contact with other people, but that's easier for some than others. Ballroom dancing, for example, holds no appeal for me. Also, I looked in the local paper for classes a while back and there is also the problem of logistics - nothing was offered during hours I could make.

[piz 0]

Based upon everything you've stated, don't you think a reasonable conclusion to draw is that shyness is not a valuable personality trait to possess?

Absolutely.

You've demonstrated quite nicely that it interferes with your ability to interact with women, and you should be aware by now that most women don't value shyness. So why not take action to overcome and change the character trait that is harming or inhibiting you? Psychological change is possible, and learned traits can be changed. As someone who was very shy as a teenager and into my early 20s, I can testify that it is possible to change traits. And Objectivism provides an excellent means by identifying the relationship between morality and motivation, and by identifying the relationship between morality and causality. This must be applied to your personal, concrete values.

Given the causes of my shyness (which I won't get into here), again it's just not an easy thing to do. I realize that you're not saying it is, but I've been formally working on this for quite a few years now and have made little progress on the shyness, which is merely a symptom of things that I am far more concerned about and that I have made progress on (a huge amount of progress, I might add).

Also, Objectivism has been a tremendous factor in my improvement, for exactly the sort of reasons you mention.

This does not mean that you look for "signals" but that you act to achieve your values and not wait for others to act on your bahalf. It will take a lot of effort and may take years, but at least you'll have something to do waiting for Mrs. Right to come along.

Well, it's not like I don't have other things to do.

"Hm, what'll I do tonight? Let's see... I can sit here and stare at the wall, or I can work on my shyness. OK then! Yep, those are the choices. Now, what do I feel like doing? Hm. Right! I guess it's another exciting evening of counting the streaks in the paint! Woo hoo!"

[realitycheck44 0]

Piz, What you've described comes pretty close to my experience. I have never developed the pick-up artist skills that are touted in magazines and recent reality tv and trotted out in bars. I tried that once or twice and it never led to anything I wanted to pursue. Before I spend an evening with her alone, I want to know more about a woman than I can find out without some kind of conversation or observation in action.

This is another interesting topic. For me, there are two issues. The first is the one that you mentioned. But generally, I'm pretty good at knowing very quickly which are the girls I don't think I'd like to date. The second issue, and very important, is that I don't want to "hit on" girls. Dating is not something I take lightly - I'm not looking for easy sex and I'm not a womanizer. Neither would I like a girl who consents to go on a date with someone who was try to "pick her up". My problem is once and a while (or a blue moon) there is a cute girl I meet in a public place that I might want to get to know better, but I'm always conscious of the fact I am indeed hitting on her, and she must know it.

Questions:

1. How do I communicate the fact that it isn't something that I would normally do? I mean, I understand if she got to know me, she would understand that, but, in order to accept the invitation, she must understand that almost immediately.

2. There's also the dilemma that if she does accept my offer then she's probably not the kind of person I want to date anyway. If she doesn't accept, well, that's the end of it. Which brings us back to Paul's original point.

I do know I'm making this horribly complicated, but I don't know how else to explain it. It would be much easier if I just didn't think about it too much and asked whoever I thought was attractive and saw what happened. But that approach would be really time consuming and just not really my personality. I'm not particularly shy, but I'm not very social.

Sorry if I further confused the issue. I considered starting a new thread, but we have so many different topics going on here that I might as well just post it here.

[Betsy Speicher 0]

Dating is not something I take lightly - I'm not looking for easy sex and I'm not a womanizer. Neither would I like a girl who consents to go on a date with someone who was try to "pick her up". My problem is once and a while (or a blue moon) there is a cute girl I meet in a public place that I might want to get to know better, but I'm always conscious of the fact I am indeed hitting on her, and she must know it.

I think a girl would respond very positively to an honest, open expression of your thoughts and feelings. How about just telling her what you saw that you liked and that you are interested in getting to know her better but you are not trying to pick her up. You just want to talk for a while if that is OK with her. Once that is said, see how she reacts. If she turns away, says she is busy, or not interested, it happens. Even the best hitters strike out.

But, if she is interested and wants to talk, move slowly to the next step like chatting for a while, buying her a coffee, etc. See how she reacts. If she seems to be enjoying herself and wants to continue and you do as well, let her know how you feel. See how she reacts. If she likes that then tell her you have enjoyed being with her and you would like to see her again. Before you say goodbye, ask for her email address and/or phone number.

If you express honest feelings, are sensitive to her feelings, communicate values, and move slowly, it is the best way to begin what might become a very good romantic relationship.

[RayK 0]

Zak,

How much time are you really going to waste on one date? I am sure most people here have spent a lot more time playing video games than they will ever spend on a first date to find out if someone is worth a second.

To answer your first question, I would just state exactly what is going through your mind. "I know this might sound weird and I usually do not do this type of thing. But your beauty has inspired me to come over to you and find out if you would like to go on a date. I would understand if this seems to weird to you, but I could not walk away without asking."

I would not assume that if she answers yes that she is not for you. She, like you, might see that something special in you that inspires her to accept the offer.

[realitycheck44 0]

Both Betsy and Ray,

Thanks for responding. I wasn't sure I articulated my arguement well enough to recieve a response.

I kind of knew what the answer was going to be, but I wanted to hear if anyone had any other suggestions. As a college student, I guess I've heard too many stories of the lengths to which guys will go. Saying "This isn't something I usually do" is honest for me, but alot of guys take that approach when they're trying to pick girls up. I mean, every girl wants to feel like she's special, and college guys are good at that, even when they're just looking for sex.

But I do understand that it's just about taking the plunge. Thanks for the advice. It helps.

[bborg 0]

Given the causes of my shyness (which I won't get into here), again it's just not an easy thing to do. I realize that you're not saying it is, but I've been formally working on this for quite a few years now and have made little progress on the shyness, which is merely a symptom of things that I am far more concerned about and that I have made progress on (a huge amount of progress, I might add).

Here is one thing I've tried. One day on the metro train, I saw a cute girl in what I thought looked like a hospital uniform. I work for a hospital, and figured I would see where she worked. This was completely out of character for me, but I decided that no better opportunity was going to come along to prove to myself that I wasn't a hopeless case and I was indeed capable of starting a conversation with a woman I didn't know. I told myself it was just an experiment, that it didn't matter what happened because the point wasn't to hook up, it was just to see if I could do it.

As it turns out, I was able to do it. I don't really remember the conversation, but she smiled and was very friendly and we talked about careers in the hospital. I mentioned that at the time I was considering training to become a technician to operate MRI machines and such, but was having trouble finding a school locally for that.

I'm not going to pretend that I loved it. The whole time, I just wanted it to end. I was pleased with myself, but I was still anxious to get away. She actually was visiting the area for something and was not a local, so I didn't feel pressured to try to get her number or anything like that. When it came to my stop I said goodbye kind of awkwardly, and was very relieved when it was done - so I'm not saying it felt natural! But I did prove to myself that I could do it if I needed to.

One of the more practical roadblocks I have trouble with, though, is the fact that the conversation really didn't thrill me and how to change my tactics so I don't have to feign interest. If I can get into an interesting conversation, I'm fine.

[Free Capitalist 0]

I can see nothing necessary or logical about any of this.

There are two points about this.

First off, one's perspective on the whole "male pursuit" issue is strongly determined by one's shyness or lack thereof. I have absolutely no problems with women being passive and sending signals to me. I am emphatically on Ray's side, and don't mind at all if women are secretive about their intentions. If I want it, I'll go for it. End of story, and she doesn't even have a lot of choice in the matter. Also I have learned to read those signs better. I can look at what a woman is doing and see for myself whether I'm working or not, without her even saying anything on the matter.

But if you look back into my late-teen years, I was a completely opposite person in this respect. Not only was I shy and incapable of approaching women, but if someone were to approach me and enlist me into the ranks of 'male pursuit' protestors, I would sign up wholeheartedly, thinking the whole thing unfair and one-sided. And yes, I was extremely a late bloomer, as Thoyd was, and there's nothing pathological about it, nothing preventing the person from growing into who they were supposed to be from the start.

So that's point 1. If you've experienced failure in getting women, it's only natural that you'll feel this expectation of you is unfair. If you've experienced success and efficacy, you'll feel nothing bad about it at all, and will yearn to rise to the challenge, to get the most attractive woman you want.

Point 2 is: the discussion of whether this male pursuit is "necessary" or "logical" is absolutely beside the issue! It's completely irrelevant! This is not some theoretical construct, open to discussion; it is empirical fact. I wouldn't say to get over shyness; I do think people need to overcome it, but it is more difficult than simply deciding to get over it. What people should get over is this debate over its logical necessity. That is taking an empirical, biological fact, and trying to intellectualize it out of existence. Just take a remote control and flip onto National Geographic Channel, and watch lions in courting, with the female lionness, proud and strong as she may be, simply lying down on the ground and waiting for the lion to come over to her and do his thing. Trying to intellectualize over this does justify a recommendation to 'get over it' (meaning well all the while).

Instead of trying to reason why, and whether it's fair, a better object of thinking is how to turn oneself into that lion, and how to get that lionness.

[bborg 0]

Just take a remote control and flip onto National Geographic Channel, and watch lions in courting, with the female lionness, proud and strong as she may be, simply lying down on the ground and waiting for the lion to come over to her and do his thing. Trying to intellectualize over this does justify a recommendation to 'get over it' (meaning well all the while).

We're not lions. I am open to a lot of what you're saying here, but people's behavior is not a metaphysical fact. It is perfectly rational to challenge behavior that one does not understand or agree with.

[B. Royce 0]

Both Betsy and Ray,

Thanks for responding. I wasn't sure I articulated my arguement well enough to recieve a response.

I kind of knew what the answer was going to be, but I wanted to hear if anyone had any other suggestions. As a college student, I guess I've heard too many stories of the lengths to which guys will go. Saying "This isn't something I usually do" is honest for me, but alot of guys take that approach when they're trying to pick girls up. I mean, every girl wants to feel like she's special, and college guys are good at that, even when they're just looking for sex.

But I do understand that it's just about taking the plunge. Thanks for the advice. It helps.

Zak, the fact that it will be honest for you is to your advantage. If she's the observant, sensitive kind of girl you want she will sense your honesty, especially if she has had a few dealings with dishonest men before. That is to say, the fact of feigned honesty has no power over true honesty. Be proud of your honesty and go for it. No matter what the actual outcome of any particular venture you will be succeeding. And, you will have a definite standard by which to judge her reaction to you.

[Free Capitalist 0]

People's behavior is a metaphysical fact in the following sense. We are predisposed to act in a way in which other animals act without choosing. We're also physically built in accordance with that predisposition, women in one way and men in the other. Saying that we all have free will does not erase this fact of sexual roles. We have, and exercise, free will within the framework of the animal on which our rational nature is built on top of.

We are also built, and designed, to walk on two feet and to utter discreete and intelligible sounds, but we have free will to walk on two hands, and talk in gibberish. That doesn't erase the fact that we were predisposed to do something else, and that this walking on hands was not it, that uttering meaningless sounds was not it.

I mean well, but trying to agonize over whether walking on our feet is appropriate, or fair, especially to people with foot disabilities, is entirely beside the point. Those people with foot disabilities were born incorrectly. Tough luck to them. People with shyness were not born in any incorrect way at all, they have no inescapable debilitating prohibition. They can fulfill that part of their nature with complete aplomb, simply by working on it. Watching National Geographic is a good inductive source of how nature works. Agonizing over why it works, and the fairness of that, isn't open to discussion.

What's more, I will add this. Agonizing over the fairness puts you at a deep disadvantage with a guy who doesn't agonize over it at all, who loves his nature, who (with complete triteness) listens to both of his heads, and who acts without a shred of guilt or doubt.

[piz 0]

I have absolutely no problems with women being passive and sending signals to me. I am emphatically on Ray's side, and don't mind at all if women are secretive about their intentions.

nothing preventing the person from growing into who they were supposed to be

If you've experienced failure in getting women, it's only natural that you'll feel this expectation of you is unfair.

Instead of trying to reason why, and whether it's fair, a better object of thinking is how to turn oneself into that lion, and how to get that lionness.

I've had lots of success "getting" women, just not recently (and that's mostly because I haven't been in much of a position to meet many). I don't think the expectation that I read her mind (which is what I'm convinced doing nothing but sending passive, secretive signals amounts to) is unfair, I think it's arrogant and manipulative.

Other men can have all the passive, secretive ones who send amorphous signals, because I've been there, have never had good experiences with that, and emphatically do not want any more of it. I'll take the ones who are going to indicate, in ways more substantial than a toss of the hair or a touch on the forearm, "I'm worth hunting, and I want you to hunt me." And I'll pursue them as I described before. If that means I'm not a "lion" even though I'm "supposed to be" one, so be it - I'm perfectly content to be a different sort of predator (if we must call it that).