Sexual interests?

[jasonlockwood 0]

What you are describing involves putting yourself into an environment in which these interactions are possible. Bryson has said that he is not currently in that context, in that environment. That's not uncommon. Meeting someone with common values doesn't mean meeting someone who does the same kind of work or takes the same classes.

Speaking from the opposite side of the sexual orientation fence, I know how tricky finding a potential mate can be. And perhaps harder, because knowing who does what first is less apparent. Neverthless, I concur with Betsy in that a good way to meet someone with whom you want to cultivate a romantic relationship is to elicit the help of your partnered friends (or married, whichever the case). This has worked for me in the past.

Another one that has worked is mixed dinner parties. You get together people you may know, but some in the group may not know each other. I've met some really interesting guys that way, and one turned into a long term relationship. Good friends know your values, so they are often good judges of who you would be compatible with. In fact just this past week I went to a dinner party and then a few days later went on a nice dinner date with someone I met at the dinner party. Turns out he's an Ayn Rand fan, too!

[realitycheck44 0]

Zak, the fact that it will be honest for you is to your advantage. If she's the observant, sensitive kind of girl you want she will sense your honesty, especially if she has had a few dealings with dishonest men before. That is to say, the fact of feigned honesty has no power over true honesty. Be proud of your honesty and go for it. No matter what the actual outcome of any particular venture you will be succeeding. And, you will have a definite standard by which to judge her reaction to you.

Or she could be the opposite and every thing I fear. No, I'm only joking. You're right.

Now the problem is lack of practice. The thing is I really don't get out much. I'm usually doing homework or ... well... uh, yeah, that's about it. When I'm not at school, I'm generally outside: climbing, backpacking, etc. It's rare for me to be somewhere girls are. (Actually, it's a joke around Webb (my college) that whenever we go to New York City or somewhere everybody's like "Look! There's girls!") I think I'm going to try to make time next semester to follow Ed's advice and take up ballroom dancing. It's been something I've wanted to do for a while now. But now I have changed the subject to a much less interesting (and much more discussed) topic.

With regards to the rest of this thread, I think my stance now is: I can do it, but I don't see why. I still do not understand why a woman cannot initiate the conversation and cannot send a little less obvious signals. I'm not stupid, I can read the signals - when they are a little more obvious then dilated pupils and pointing a foot in your direction. I mean, when Roark met Dominique, she was the one who showed definite interest by having him set the stone in her house. Same thing with Dagny and Rearden- she showed a huge amount of interest by taking that bracelet from Lillian. I mean, if that wasn't a "sign" I don't know what was.

The other large problem I have is that I often get signals that are very mixed. I don't know if other guys have had the same experience, but I'm beginning to think most women have no idea what they actually want. For example, the last potential date I met started text messaging me ALOT, so I asked her on a date. Turns out, she just like text messaging. She was so uncertain about going on a date that I didn't know what to do. First she said yes, then she said no, then she said she was confused. ??? Now, I'm assuming (and hoping) that's a rare case, but the point is valid. I've encountered lots of examples where I think a girl likes me, so I start to reciprocate attention, and then she stops. It's hard for me to interpret these subtle things as signals when I find that they are often unaware that they are doing them.

[bborg 0]

I've had lots of success "getting" women, just not recently (and that's mostly because I haven't been in much of a position to meet many). I don't think the expectation that I read her mind (which is what I'm convinced doing nothing but sending passive, secretive signals amounts to) is unfair, I think it's arrogant and manipulative.

It depends of course. I only have a problem with it if the woman feels this is what she's supposed to be doing. Despite the progress I've made, I still can't say I've succeeded. I know how difficult it is, and if a girl makes a sincere attempt and the "passive, secretive signals" are all that get through, I think that's a different case and I'm not going to hold it against her.

[softwareGuru 0]

I still do not understand why a woman cannot initiate the conversation and cannot send a little less obvious signals. I'm not stupid, I can read the signals - when they are a little more obvious then dilated pupils and pointing a foot in your direction.

Women do initiate conversation. I don't think Betsy and Sophia have said they do not. What I see them saying is that the context has to be right. In a context where initiating a conversation would be interpreted as them making a "move" on you, it is far less likely that they will do so. However, in a different context, where it is "safe" to be friendly, it is quite common for a woman to strike up a conversation.

[Betsy Speicher 0]

When I'm not at school, I'm generally outside: climbing, backpacking, etc.

There are climbing and backpacking clubs for singles and there's lots of opportunity for conversation on the trail during a long hike.

I think I'm going to try to make time next semester to follow Ed's advice and take up ballroom dancing. It's been something I've wanted to do for a while now.

That's good, too.

With regards to the rest of this thread, I think my stance now is: I can do it, but I don't see why. I still do not understand why a woman cannot initiate the conversation and cannot send a little less obvious signals.

It may be because she is ambivalent. She likes you but she doesn't know enough about you to trust you yet. What she may feel is interested in finding out whether you are really interesting or might be interested in her, yet she doesn't want to take charge of the situation or scare you off.

The other large problem I have is that I often get signals that are very mixed. I don't know if other guys have had the same experience, but I'm beginning to think most women have no idea what they actually want.

They may not -- yet. It is often up to the man to show her that he is someone worth wanting and that's how he wins her over.

[Free Capitalist 0]

When I'm not at school, I'm generally outside: climbing, backpacking, etc. It's rare for me to be somewhere girls are. (Actually, it's a joke around Webb (my college) that whenever we go to New York City or somewhere everybody's like "Look! There's girls!") I think I'm going to try to make time next semester to follow Ed's advice and take up ballroom dancing. It's been something I've wanted to do for a while now. But now I have changed the subject to a much less interesting (and much more discussed) topic.

1) there's communal backpacking/climbing groups out there. I think, based on the context of your post, that you more specifically mean that you hang out where your other guy friends are. That's the real issue. Not the backpacking or camping, but going with your buddies. That's one of the problems if your other guy friends don't go to places with women. Then you're stuck. So you have to make an extra effort to go outside your group, sometimes even to a detriment of your standing with your friends, but because that's something you have to do.

2) ballroom dancing is fantastic, on so many levels. One, you may meet a pretty girl there.

Two, you get so much practice holding women at their waist, holding them close, that you lose a lot of shyness which, if exhibited, women always take to be a lack of confidence or masculinity, i.e. a killer perception. If you know how to hold a woman, and yet appear totally nonchalant and not having a "oh my god I'm holding the waist!" floating all around your mind, that is something that really appeals to them -- to know how to hold them, and at the same time look completely unfazed by this closeness.

Finally there's just the skill of ballroom dancing. Women love a guy who knows how to move, and inexperienced men always think that dancing undermines their masculinity. Thus, the men who know how to move, and to appear masculine while doing it, get any girl of their pick usually without any exception. You don't have to be an expert either. I went just for a year, acquiring points One and Two above at these ballroom lessons, but I still impressed my current girlfriend who is something of an expert at salsa and tango; in fact that's how I got a first date with her, by being open and confident on the dance floor, when all the other guys tried to appear "cool" and "confident" by staying at their tables.

With regards to the rest of this thread, I think my stance now is: I can do it, but I don't see why. I still do not understand why a woman cannot initiate the conversation and cannot send a little less obvious signals.

Here's the thing, and I don't think it's been so far mentioned in the thread. Women don't send signals to communicate with you. That's absolutely right. They can't expect you to be a mind-reader, and they don't. They send signals subconsciously, by just being themselves, and reading that merely helps you gauge how you are doing. Signals is something women send out almost unintentionally, as an outward expression. For instance, it's always a good signal when they start playing with their hair or brushing it. Women love their hair, especially those that take care of it, so they take pride in it and the look it gives them, thus reaching for this exemplar of their beauty subconsciously when they are attracted and want to appear more beautiful in your eyes. Obviously, constantly looking to you and away is not a very good sign. By the same token, constant and attentive eye contact with you, is. But ultimately, you don't even have to know these signs to do well, they just augment your awareness of the situation. Women don't send signals as a means of communication, and you don't need them to be such. You need to just know what you want, and what of your qualities justifies you getting it. Also, since you're in college, college girls are almost as appearance-obsessed as guys, and so you have to exude a good and healthy look, to make a first good impression. That means things like, non-intrusive hair style, clean shave, musculature which fills in your t-shirt, etc. Then, if they're attracted, you're open to demonstrating that you're a good guy, also with an intelligent head on your shoulders, and above and beyond the meatheads she's got to deal with.

For example, the last potential date I met started text messaging me ALOT, so I asked her on a date. Turns out, she just like text messaging. She was so uncertain about going on a date that I didn't know what to do. First she said yes, then she said no, then she said she was confused. ??? Now, I'm assuming (and hoping) that's a rare case, but the point is valid. I've encountered lots of examples where I think a girl likes me, so I start to reciprocate attention, and then she stops. It's hard for me to interpret these subtle things as signals when I find that they are often unaware that they are doing them.

See the thing is, you're not supposed to make a move based on those signals. Do you like her? If yes, great job on asking her out. She says no? Too bad, she can go find someone else. It's really not a big deal.

At the end of the day, all you have to concern yourself with is, since you're in college, that you look fit and healthy, that you exude a collected and non-unstable impression, that you act like you've got your principles, which she'll have to come around to (rather than you doing whatever it takes to get her). In general, you have to act to pull her to your side of the court, and by bringing attention to her and her attractive qualities, to indicate that she's pretty enough and a good girl enough to be something you'll pursue.

[Carlos 0]

Jordan,

Thanks for your response, but what you describe is not shyness as I experience it and I don’t think you’ve read what I’ve written in this thread.

To be honest, reading all ten pages to get up to speed did not sound fun! I just read the last few things you wrote.

Also, my problem is not simply a matter of pursuing women I'm interested in, as I've just said. There's no one to pursue! I had a couple lunch dates a few years ago, and that's about it recently. Opportunities for me just do not pop up all the time, I am not in school (on a campus anyway), I am not in a club where I interact with other young people, and I have few friends, who are busy most of the time. There is no one at work my age. Also, I have to devote a lot of my time now to studying. Asking me to "keep [my] eyes open" doesn't really help. It's ok, though, I didn't post here for advice.

Something really interesting I read was written by Dr.Hurd: He said it was a myth that most people don't find romance, and that if you keep looking hard and pursuing romance, it is very unlikely that you won't find that special someone.

Trust me: you have to keep your eyes open. I came from a small town where there were slim pickings for meaningful romance, and always dreamed of finding the perfect girl at Texas Tech. Even at Texas Tech I still found nothing, but then I joined The Forum and found Free Spirit!

Just keep your eyes open, live life, and you will find a special lady who is truly right for you.

[realitycheck44 0]

1) there's communal backpacking/climbing groups out there. I think, based on the context of your post, that you more specifically mean that you hang out where your other guy friends are. That's the real issue. Not the backpacking or camping, but going with your buddies. That's one of the problems if your other guy friends don't go to places with women. Then you're stuck. So you have to make an extra effort to go outside your group, sometimes even to a detriment of your standing with your friends, but because that's something you have to do.

No, not at all. I have trouble finding partners in general. My mom is usually my backpacking partner and my climbing partner happens to be a girl. Most of my friends do neither. I'll look into joining a club, actually had never thought of that before. Generally, I don't think this is a good way to meet girls at my age, but I guess it's worth a shot, particuarly since I need partners anyway.

2) ballroom dancing is fantastic, on so many levels. One, you may meet a pretty girl there.

Two, you get so much practice holding women at their waist, holding them close, that you lose a lot of shyness which, if exhibited, women always take to be a lack of confidence or masculinity, i.e. a killer perception. If you know how to hold a woman, and yet appear totally nonchalant and not having a "oh my god I'm holding the waist!" floating all around your mind, that is something that really appeals to them -- to know how to hold them, and at the same time look completely unfazed by this closeness.

Finally there's just the skill of ballroom dancing. Women love a guy who knows how to move, and inexperienced men always think that dancing undermines their masculinity. Thus, the men who know how to move, and to appear masculine while doing it, get any girl of their pick usually without any exception. You don't have to be an expert either. I went just for a year, acquiring points One and Two above at these ballroom lessons, but I still impressed my current girlfriend who is something of an expert at salsa and tango; in fact that's how I got a first date with her, by being open and confident on the dance floor, when all the other guys tried to appear "cool" and "confident" by staying at their tables.

I know - I think its a great skill to have. Besides, it's just fun. When I was in orchestra in high school, we threw a ball every year that included brief lessons and a few hours of dancing. Orchestra memebers only had to play a third of the time (based on some roation schedule) so I was able to dance most of the time. As a side note, did you learn to dance in New York City? I was wondering if you could recommend a place to learn? I'm on Long Island, about 45 minutes out of the city, so I was assuming I'd go there to dance anyway.

I'll respond to the rest of your post tomorrow.

Zak

[bborg 0]

To be honest, reading all ten pages to get up to speed did not sound fun! I just read the last few things you wrote.

That's the real disadvantage of long discussions, unfortunately. I probably wouldn't have read every post either.

Something really interesting I read was written by Dr.Hurd: He said it was a myth that most people don't find romance, and that if you keep looking hard and pursuing romance, it is very unlikely that you won't find that special someone.

Dr. Hurd is a very smart man, but "very unlikely" has so far applied very well to me. I'm 29 and I've never had a girlfriend. Yes, some of it is my fault, I've messed up a few chances that I either knew about or found out about later. Other times a girl was interested but already with someone. I would think it "very unlikely" that during all the time, not one chance taken or one girl found would work out for any length of time, and yet here we are. I'm certainly not trying to say "boo hoo, poor me", but my disatisfaction is not without reason. I've watched friends stumble their way into relationships online and even playing World of Warcraft, and I do talk to people and meet people where I can. Sometimes I really think "it's not in the cards", even though I don't believe in fate. Maybe I don't really believe it will happen.

What I've generally done when this really gets me down is immerse myself back into something I enjoy doing. If I don't find someone, and there's no rule of reality that says I will even after another 50 years, I'm still responsible for my own happiness.

[Carlos 0]

Dr. Hurd is a very smart man, but "very unlikely" has so far applied very well to me. I'm 29 and I've never had a girlfriend. Yes, some of it is my fault, I've messed up a few chances that I either knew about or found out about later. Other times a girl was interested but already with someone. I would think it "very unlikely" that during all the time, not one chance taken or one girl found would work out for any length of time, and yet here we are. I'm certainly not trying to say "boo hoo, poor me", but my disatisfaction is not without reason. I've watched friends stumble their way into relationships online and even playing World of Warcraft, and I do talk to people and meet people where I can. Sometimes I really think "it's not in the cards", even though I don't believe in fate. Maybe I don't really believe it will happen.

What I've generally done when this really gets me down is immerse myself back into something I enjoy doing. If I don't find someone, and there's no rule of reality that says I will even after another 50 years, I'm still responsible for my own happiness.

The internet is your best friend when it comes to romance, and I'm sure WoW wouldn't be half-bad either. (besides, even if you don't find someone on WoW you could have a 70 Frost Mage, and what's more important than that?). Also, keep in mind that some woman is looking for a guy like you as well, so getting on internet dating websites would increase your chances of finding that lady.

[Carlos 0]

To continue on WoW, I was playing one day and encountered a player with a name (can't remember what it was) that sounded as if the person might be into Objectivism. When I asked it turned out it was some early 20's person who was studying Engineering and was crazy about Objectivism! With 10 million playing I'm sure there is some young Objectivist lady on there

[bborg 0]

I actually do play, but I only pop on once or twice a week now. I've met a lot of people, some I've enjoyed talking to and including some women. I've known several people to hook up based on people they met on the game, but I've never clicked that way with someone, even though I get along well with quite a few people.

[Ed from OC 0]

Dating is not something I take lightly - I'm not looking for easy sex and I'm not a womanizer.

That sounds like something I would have said a long time ago. Why not take dating lightly? That is, let yourself enjoy the process of meeting someone new, finding out she's kind of interesting, asking her out for coffee to learn more about her, and seeing where things go from there.

The opposite of the womanizer (who takes subjectivst, anyone-will-do approach) is someone who puts dating and romance on a pedestal, detached from pleasures, in an intrinsicist approach that says either sex is bad or too good, the latter in the sense of: "Sex is good, but I'm not deserving of it" or "sex should be reserved for only the perfect soulmate."

Both forms of the intrisicist approach lead to the misery of celibacy.

By all means, have good standards for relationships, but that doesn't mean holding out for the one true love of your life. A serious long-term relationship with your soulmate is not the only possible form of proper relationships. It's possible to have fun with someone who interests you even if she's not your complete soulmate.

Asking a girl out for coffee hardly implies marriage. What it means is you want to spend time with her, and you find her interesting and fun. So enjoy a cup of coffee for what it is, at the same time getting a feel for whether something else may develop. I don't think a date should be solely focused on the future, treating it as an interview. That's something that generally ought to be in the back of your mind, while keeping focused on the present and having fun in the moment.

My 2 cents -- and happy dating!

[Ed from OC 0]

The internet is your best friend when it comes to romance, [...]

Ack! I know there have been rare exceptions, but I'm very down on the idea of meeting a romantic partner online. It's very very hard to connect and have chemistry in such a detached, distant setting. I tried it a few years ago, but the dates I got went nowhere.

Think about it this way: how well do you know the people on this forum? I've chatted online with many of the regulars since this started, but I hardly know them as people.

I think many people use online dating as a crutch, since they don't have to face rejection in real life. But in some ways it may be worse than not dating at all, since one may feel he is putting out some effort and getting nothing in return, which only reinforces the sense of loneliness, rejection, and failure.

[Ed from OC 0]

Since this thread's evolved to discussing shyness issues and meeting too few potential dating material, let me add some general comments.

Shyness shouldn't be thought of as an either-or alternative of being too inhibited to talk to anyone, or being able to get dates with any random stranger at will. EVERYONE -- without exception -- has moments of shyness, of self-conscious nervousness that gets in the way of pursuing one's values. The issue is one of degrees, and of how one treats the issue.

I got into ballroom dancing in order to ask out one particular lady who was into dancing. I found that there were many other interesting women who are into dancing. (In fact, very few women don't enjoy dancing, which is why I recommend it to guys who say they don't meet enough women, or are too shy.) I wasn't into dancing at first, but I realize now it was because I wasn't good at it. As I learned (at a painfully slow rate, at first) I enjoyed it more and started asking women to dance. Now I dance 3 or more nights a week. Now it's not about meeting women, so much as I just really really like dancing. I actually love the feeling of controlling my body in a beautiful manner to great music.

But that initial step is a killer. All I can say is: get over it. Jump in and just do it. Work at it, and you'll get better, and eventually impress all kinds of women who will jump to go out with you. In some cases, they may make very clear, unmistakable first moves (which I won't elaborate on here).

As for reading signals: I just don't care. If I see someone interesting, I find out more about them. If my interest is high enough, I let them know I like them and ask them out for coffee. They say yes or no. If yes, wonderful. If no, fine, I'm done, no need to spend time worrying about whether she likes me or not. If I'm not interested, I don't ask them out.

[bborg 0]

All I can say is: get over it.

You have some good advice, but I quoted this because you should really stop saying it. Maybe it worked for you, but it is generally a crude and ineffective motivator.

[alann 0]

All I can say is: get over it.

You have some good advice, but I quoted this because you should really stop saying it. Maybe it worked for you, but it is generally a crude and ineffective motivator.

I don't think Ed was really meaning "get over it." I think what he really meant was that you should find a way to "surmount the obstacle."

There. I'm glad I was able to clear that up.

Actually, I think the problem is that people are speaking from two sides of an experiential divide. I know Ed. I know that Ed was shy and a late bloomer when I first met him. I was extremely insecure in high school about asking a girl out and assumed if she was holding hands with a guy, or talking with him, or shared his zip code, that she was "taken" and that was the end of that. I know painfully shy guys and very confident guys. A friend of mine in college looked like the personification of Ragnar Danneskøld, 6-foot tall, blue-haired, blond-eyed, an only child from a wealthy family, phi beta kappa in economics... you know, "Brad Pitt, who?" He was very confident around women, but, when he cared for one, he could become insecure, could be easily hurt. He covered, but he was a sensitive guy. As someone else on the thread said, there's some of this in almost every guy. (I say almost because there are some pretty thick heads out there and the seriously dysfunctional men whose insecurities, buried and festering, turn into resentment, if not hate.)

For those who have found it in themselves to overcome their fears and put themselves out there, most have found that, even with the possibility of rejection, which does occur, that it was much less traumatic than they expected and actually pleasurable on the other side. It's as if the shy person were looking at a huge, gaping chasm, with those cocky jerks on the other side yelling "get over it!" and seeing only certain death. Those that take the leap land on the other side, where the women are, look back to see a tiny fissure where that chasm had just been and wonder why the hell they didn't do this sooner.

I think that's what Ed means, it's certainly what I mean. I still let opportunities go due to insecurities, but I know I can step up when it's really worth it to me. To someone who's managed to make that change, they can no longer see that chasm, it looks like the tiny fissure and so they minimize it. I would take it in a more positive light, that someone is trying to help you get to where things are a whole lot less painful and more fun.

But I didn't see your post a couple pages ago, where you mention that you did initiate a conversation with a female hospital worker on the metro train and lived to talk about it. I think that's terrific. That really changes the dialogue, because now the issue is more finding someone you would enjoy talking to, rather than it being an onerous research project. The answer is to keep your eyes and ears open for someone that excites you and try again. It can happen at any time of your life. But you do need to be alert and open to the possibility. And you can engage in conversation with women for which you feel some attraction in the meanwhile, for practice.

[Paul's Here 0]

The internet is your best friend when it comes to romance, [...]

Ack! I know there have been rare exceptions, but I'm very down on the idea of meeting a romantic partner online. It's very very hard to connect and have chemistry in such a detached, distant setting. I tried it a few years ago, but the dates I got went nowhere.

Think about it this way: how well do you know the people on this forum? I've chatted online with many of the regulars since this started, but I hardly know them as people.

I think many people use online dating as a crutch, since they don't have to face rejection in real life. But in some ways it may be worse than not dating at all, since one may feel he is putting out some effort and getting nothing in return, which only reinforces the sense of loneliness, rejection, and failure.

I have an Objectivist friend who met a woman from Match.com (I think that was the one) and they just got married this month. So it does work.

[Betsy Speicher 0]

The internet is your best friend when it comes to romance, [...]

Ack! I know there have been rare exceptions, but I'm very down on the idea of meeting a romantic partner online. It's very very hard to connect and have chemistry in such a detached, distant setting.

The internet is good for getting to know the "soul" part of a potential soul-mate. It shows you their mind at its best, how intelligent they are, and their intellectual style. What they choose to write about and what they say gives insight into their values and motivation.

It does not tell you whether they are short or tall, confident in the presence of the opposite sex, would like you if they met you in person, and many other important things but, heck! You have to start somewhere.

[RayK 0]

All I can say is: get over it.

You have some good advice, but I quoted this because you should really stop saying it. Maybe it worked for you, but it is generally a crude and ineffective motivator.

When I was in the Marine Corps we had to do a lot of things that a regualr (sane) person will feel uncomfortable with. In these type of situations you know you have to do it so why wait, just do it/get over it. Jumping out of helicopters is not something that most people ever grow totally comformtable with. Jumping in to freezing cold water is not something that anyone grows comfortable with. Swinging from a rope 100 feet below a helicopter with a little hook holding you is not something people grow comfortable with. But, in all these situations I did not sit there and constantly think about the what ifs. Instead I thought about the possible negative consequences and the possible rewards and decided to go after the rewards. So, I agree with what Ed and Alan are stating, a person just has to "get over it" and go after that which they value. Some how, some way a person has to take that leap out onto the limb and deal with the consequences, good or bad.

[PhilO 0]

Some how, some way a person has to take that leap out onto the limb and deal with the consequences, good or bad.

Yes, and in reality, asking for a date and being turned down isn't quite the same as defusing a bomb with a 20% chance it will blow up in your face - just for a little perspective

[Thoyd Loki 0]

All I can say is: get over it.

You have some good advice, but I quoted this because you should really stop saying it. Maybe it worked for you, but it is generally a crude and ineffective motivator.

Yeah, I don't think this will be making any waves in the psychiatric community any time soon.

"Dr. I feel lost and depressed."

"Get over it."

"Dr. I have inappropriate feelings toward my mother-in-law."

"Get over it."

"Dr. I have anger management issues."

"Get over it."

That said there is no avoiding the fact that at that last moment before the action can be taken that is what has to happen, at least in the instance of that action. A person doesn't just "get over it" period, but each time. It takes a long period of time of introspection, and continual torture of gradually putting oneself more and more out there.

I call it the "F*** it" moment (I hope that isn't deemed inappropriate even censored, but it is the word I use because of its force) . All the bad imagery of what is going to go wrong, the bad feeling, the dread and negative self-focus, the shaking hands, slamming heartbeat. Stew in it for a moment, and then say "F*** it," and go (replete with a speedy exit plan). You have to admit it is quite a rush with all that adrenaline. Hell, in that moment of time the person is the equivalent of a sky-diver chemically.

A good public job also works wonders. I have practically none of my shyness left after 2 years of bartending. I have to talk to drop dead gorgeous women all the time. Not too much different than talking to dudes. Easier actually since I know nothing about cars, construction, or sports!

[Free Capitalist 0]

A good public job also works wonders. I have practically none of my shyness left after 2 years of bartending. I have to talk to drop dead gorgeous women all the time. Not too much different than talking to dudes. Easier actually since I know nothing about cars, construction, or sports!

Excellent idea TL. In a nutshell, this advice boils down to "give yourself a ton of exposure to various women in many kinds of situations".

And that boils down to "continually challenge yourself and don't settle for a comfort zone". That is ultimately the only advice one could ever get. Constantly mentally put yourself into challenging situations with attractive women. And for good effort to be put in into being physically attractive. I don't see how these two cannot produce results in time.

By constantly making myself stumble in front of women, is exactly how I overcame late-bloomer problems, how I learned to be comfortable and say the right things. That seems to be how Thoyd has gotten comfortable. I'm sure Ray might say something similar. There's no way except the hard way. I think you (bborg) are doing yourself a disservice by looking at your friends' easy hook-ups and thinking that's how it's supposed to be. It's not. Nothing worthwhile is ever easy.

[Thoyd Loki 0]

That seems to be how Thoyd has gotten comfortable. I'm sure Ray might say something similar. There's no way except the hard way. I think you (bborg) are doing yourself a disservice by looking at your friends' easy hook-ups and thinking that's how it's supposed to be. It's not. Nothing worthwhile is ever easy.

Well, that's a yes and a no there. I'm on bborg and Piz's side on this issue because at the end of the day I'm still the guy that is inclined not to than to. Shyness is a bitch and stubborn, and I'll never be the unselfconscious extrovert.

Even the other day I bought myself an awesome 8-point newsboy linen cap (balding since 25 I've become a collector of expensive hat wear) it took me three days to wear it out of the apartment because I felt uncomfortable even though I love it. It is utterly irrational and stupid but it hits you like a metaphysical roadblock; it, if not dealt with becomes the point of reality by which you choose your actions.

Also, I had already been married for 13 years before I took the bartending job, so it was more of clean-up than a breakthrough. I have it a little easier since there is no chance of romance with any one I meet. But it would have certainly have helped that much earlier - no doubt there.

Aside from that there is one other thing that can really help as far as women are concerned. That is (don't blush anybody) sexual knowledge, especially of how women experience sex on a physical level. While the passion of a young romance can feed a lot of the early sex history of a romantic relationship, it will only carry you so far. You can't, month after month, year after year, simply get to a height of passion and slam in there finish your business and expect her to remain satisfied. There are endless intricate ways to pleasure a woman (god, I'm glad I use a made up name!) and it does give you a confidence when you can do this. And it is the same as anything else, a sense of efficacy. And comes from the same source.

[Free Capitalist 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnaC6cgUmXc

You can't tell me this doesn't affect you, bborg. "Maybe I'm just born that way" be damned. You can do it.