Christianity in the United Kingdom collapsing

[Free Capitalist 0]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/f...icle3890080.ece

From The Times

May 8, 2008

Church attendance in Britain is declining so fast that the number of regular churchgoers will be fewer than those attending mosques within a generation, research published today suggests.

The fall - from the four million people who attend church at least once a month today - means that the Church of England, Catholicism and other denominations will become financially unviable. A lack of funds from the collection plate to support the Christian infrastructure, including church upkeep and ministers’ pay and pensions, will force church closures as ageing congregations die.

In contrast, the number of actively religious Muslims will have increased from about one million today to 1.96 million in 2035.

According to Religious Trends, a comprehensive statistical analysis of religious practice in Britain, published by Christian Research, even Hindus will come close to outnumbering churchgoers within a generation. The forecast to 2050 shows churchgoing in Britain declining to 899,000 while the active Hindu population, now at nearly 400,000, will have more than doubled to 855,000. By 2050 there will be 2,660,000 active Muslims in Britain - nearly three times the number of Sunday churchgoers.

Coming just months after the Archbishop of Canterbury suggested that the introduction of aspects of sharia into British law was unavoidable, the report is likely to fuel calls for the disestablishment of the Church of England.

...

[Stussy88 0]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/f...icle3890080.ece

From The Times

May 8, 2008

Church attendance in Britain is declining so fast that the number of regular churchgoers will be fewer than those attending mosques within a generation, research published today suggests.

The fall - from the four million people who attend church at least once a month today - means that the Church of England, Catholicism and other denominations will become financially unviable. A lack of funds from the collection plate to support the Christian infrastructure, including church upkeep and ministers’ pay and pensions, will force church closures as ageing congregations die.

In contrast, the number of actively religious Muslims will have increased from about one million today to 1.96 million in 2035.

According to Religious Trends, a comprehensive statistical analysis of religious practice in Britain, published by Christian Research, even Hindus will come close to outnumbering churchgoers within a generation. The forecast to 2050 shows churchgoing in Britain declining to 899,000 while the active Hindu population, now at nearly 400,000, will have more than doubled to 855,000. By 2050 there will be 2,660,000 active Muslims in Britain - nearly three times the number of Sunday churchgoers.

Coming just months after the Archbishop of Canterbury suggested that the introduction of aspects of sharia into British law was unavoidable, the report is likely to fuel calls for the disestablishment of the Church of England.

...

I would certainly support the dis-establishmant of the church, it's long overdue.

They aren't about to go bust just yet. Apart from enormously valuable fixed assets and real estate interests, they charge an absolute fortune for having a church wedding, (really how much can it cost to rent an otherwise empty church for the morning and have the vicar read some fairy stories?) around £1,000 for a small church outside of London, any price for a cathedral or London church. Also, as churches close, they can sell off the land to developers.

They still maintain an inordinate influence in the House of Lords and in the wider media.

But in general, I welcome our retreat from this particular superstition.

As for Islam in the UK, if you will forgive the pun, I think this is its Indian summer, before an inevitable decline.

[Henryk 0]

Hi Stussy 88

How can a decline occur, when their birth rate is 2.5 higher than the Christians ?

[Stussy88 0]

Hi Stussy 88

How can a decline occur, when their birth rate is 2.5 higher than the Christians ?

Ah, I was perhaps unclear. Whilst I expect the birth rate of Muslim families to remain higher than Christian families, I think the committment to radical Islam is likely to decline.

Here's my logic; The first generation of Muslim immigrants to the UK in the 1960's (mostly Pakistani) came over and started businesses and were often successful. They of course wanted their kids to be educated professionals and so sent them off to University in the 1970's and early 1980's with strictures to be modest and religously observant.

The kids of course, rebelled against this and enjoyed the pleasures of the flesh and the grape. The third generation is now rebelling against the second, by rejecting financial success and looking to religion for the answers. The global upshoot of Islamic grievance-mongering has given them a focus for now.

But as with any cycle, I expect their kids to rebel against the overly controlling fathers, the honour killings and the pointless death. Also, at some point, our respective armies will leave Iraq. Now, don't get me wrong, if he is determined enough, the average Jihadi will find something to get worked up about, but if it's on TV less, it has less impact.

[Tito 0]

Hi Stussy 88

How can a decline occur, when their birth rate is 2.5 higher than the Christians ?

Ah, I was perhaps unclear. Whilst I expect the birth rate of Muslim families to remain higher than Christian families, I think the committment to radical Islam is likely to decline.

Here's my logic; The first generation of Muslim immigrants to the UK in the 1960's (mostly Pakistani) came over and started businesses and were often successful. They of course wanted their kids to be educated professionals and so sent them off to University in the 1970's and early 1980's with strictures to be modest and religously observant.

The kids of course, rebelled against this and enjoyed the pleasures of the flesh and the grape. The third generation is now rebelling against the second, by rejecting financial success and looking to religion for the answers. The global upshoot of Islamic grievance-mongering has given them a focus for now.

But as with any cycle, I expect their kids to rebel against the overly controlling fathers, the honour killings and the pointless death. Also, at some point, our respective armies will leave Iraq. Now, don't get me wrong, if he is determined enough, the average Jihadi will find something to get worked up about, but if it's on TV less, it has less impact.

Being in a bit of a rural atmosphere, I don't meet many muslims. But the ones I do seem to be muslim by name only; praying and reading their books seems to come after partying (with alcohol!).

i would imagine that the generation after won't even bother calling themselves muslim, if their parents are so western.

Of course, one shouldn't downplay the dangerous elements that do exist.

[Stussy88 0]

Hi Stussy 88

How can a decline occur, when their birth rate is 2.5 higher than the Christians ?

Ah, I was perhaps unclear. Whilst I expect the birth rate of Muslim families to remain higher than Christian families, I think the committment to radical Islam is likely to decline.

Here's my logic; The first generation of Muslim immigrants to the UK in the 1960's (mostly Pakistani) came over and started businesses and were often successful. They of course wanted their kids to be educated professionals and so sent them off to University in the 1970's and early 1980's with strictures to be modest and religously observant.

The kids of course, rebelled against this and enjoyed the pleasures of the flesh and the grape. The third generation is now rebelling against the second, by rejecting financial success and looking to religion for the answers. The global upshoot of Islamic grievance-mongering has given them a focus for now.

But as with any cycle, I expect their kids to rebel against the overly controlling fathers, the honour killings and the pointless death. Also, at some point, our respective armies will leave Iraq. Now, don't get me wrong, if he is determined enough, the average Jihadi will find something to get worked up about, but if it's on TV less, it has less impact.

Being in a bit of a rural atmosphere, I don't meet many muslims. But the ones I do seem to be muslim by name only; praying and reading their books seems to come after partying (with alcohol!).

i would imagine that the generation after won't even bother calling themselves muslim, if their parents are so western.

Of course, one shouldn't downplay the dangerous elements that do exist.

Mrs Stussy88, despite (or perhaps) being born in Iran, eschews the veil in favour of the summer dress, she declines halal food in favour of dry cured bacon, and politely refuses alcohol free cocktails in favour of Gin & tonic, I've never seen her pray, and she regards the Jihadis and the mullahs with utter contempt, so there maybe something in what you say.

Mind you, there is a downside, she doesn't think I should be allowed four wives

[Cometmaker 0]

Ah, I was perhaps unclear. Whilst I expect the birth rate of Muslim families to remain higher than Christian families, I think the committment to radical Islam is likely to decline.

Here's my logic; The first generation of Muslim immigrants to the UK in the 1960's (mostly Pakistani) came over and started businesses and were often successful. They of course wanted their kids to be educated professionals and so sent them off to University in the 1970's and early 1980's with strictures to be modest and religously observant.[...]

I do not know what you mean by "the average Jihadi", but people who graduate with degrees in computer science, nuclear physics are better able to coordinate bombings due to their understanding and access to technology and a more organized hierarchy of knowledge. They use technology for their own goals because Islam, by nature, permits no compartmentalization between religion and "the rest" of life. Part of the enjoyment and purpose of destruction for them is making sure their efforts are televised. I am uncertain how armed forces' withdrawal from Iraq would result in Islam-related topics, such as subway bombings, taking up less airtime on television when the bombers are seeking impact and the glory of being on the news. That is part of self-actualization for the educated Jihadi.

I do not know what you mean also by a commitment to "radical Islam". Quranic surahs are not consistent and the words can be taken to mean anything the reader wishes it to mean - there are different interpretations, and different ayahs added depending on the version you pick up. Whether someone really sticks to the hadith, or not, or goes on umrah, or not, give no indication of which aspect of the religion he chooses to apply to reality. Someone may eat a pork sausage but still read one sentence in a whole surah to mean bombing is not bloody enough and he's got to use his degree in infectious diseases to create something "better".

[KPO'M 0]

Hi Stussy 88

How can a decline occur, when their birth rate is 2.5 higher than the Christians ?

Ah, I was perhaps unclear. Whilst I expect the birth rate of Muslim families to remain higher than Christian families, I think the committment to radical Islam is likely to decline.

Of course, the 7/7/05 bombers were native-born Britons. When I was there, I worked with someone a little like Mrs. Stussy88. However, I also recall all the news stories about how second and third generation Muslims still felt "ghettoized" and segregated. I suspect the reality of the average British Muslim is somewhere in between, though I also recall reading studies indicating that Muslims assimilate better in the US than they do in most western European countries.

What is clear is that Christianity has long been on the decline throughout western Europe. France is extremely secular (almost militant about it), while people in most other countries are basically indifferent to religion. Islam seems to be different in that its adherents seem to be clinging to it more tightly than Christians are. At the same time, the increasing number of Muslims seems to be fueling the rise of ultra-"right" wing nationalists like the BNP.

[Stussy88 0]

Hi Stussy 88

How can a decline occur, when their birth rate is 2.5 higher than the Christians ?

Ah, I was perhaps unclear. Whilst I expect the birth rate of Muslim families to remain higher than Christian families, I think the committment to radical Islam is likely to decline.

Of course, the 7/7/05 bombers were native-born Britons. When I was there, I worked with someone a little like Mrs. Stussy88. However, I also recall all the news stories about how second and third generation Muslims still felt "ghettoized" and segregated. I suspect the reality of the average British Muslim is somewhere in between, though I also recall reading studies indicating that Muslims assimilate better in the US than they do in most western European countries.

What is clear is that Christianity has long been on the decline throughout western Europe. France is extremely secular (almost militant about it), while people in most other countries are basically indifferent to religion. Islam seems to be different in that its adherents seem to be clinging to it more tightly than Christians are. At the same time, the increasing number of Muslims seems to be fueling the rise of ultra-"right" wing nationalists like the BNP.

I really have very little time for Muslims in the UK moaning about being "ghetto-ised" When you move to a country, embrace the culture. But if you live in a large extended family group and won't buy or rent homes outside of it, if you refuse to take part in the wider culture, if you insist on speaking Urdu in a mainly English speaking country, if you don't socialise much less date outside your religious group, then you are responsible for your own segregation.

There are no laws on UK buses saying "Muslims to the rear" and hence no Rosa Parks figures, but plenty of muslims calling for idiotic protections of their own superstition and arbitrarily deciding that anyone who upsets them should be executed.

This segregation, is almost exclusively a Pakistani (hence Muslim) phenomena. Indians by contrast are pretty well integrated. Mrs Stussy 88 eschewing all the nonsense is about as integrated as its possible to be, but not because the wider populace came to her, but because she went to it. Tomorrow for example she is coming to the FA Cup final with me (it's like the Superbowl) but I'm willing to bet she will be one of the very, very few Muslims there.

So again, it is incumbent on immigrants to a country to adapt and integrate.

I can believe that Muslims integrate better in the USA.

[Free Capitalist 0]

I'm afraid of what will happen in the UK.

[bborg 0]

The basic problem, as I understood it in Infidel, is that Muslims flee persecution, famine and violence in their own countries but fail to recognize or appreciate the reason for the wealth in their new home. They move here without renouncing the beliefs that created the hell they wanted refuge from. Hence, when they settle, they continue to spit on Western values and expect horrors like honor killings and, in some cases, female circumcision to be tolerated. Crying "segregation" is just one more tactic in the war against the West, trying to get it to "submit" to the will of Allah - this time by appealing to Western values that they do not share.