Red

When to look for romance?

45 posts in this topic

This is a question i've been pondering for a while. To understand whre i'm coming from I think I should give you a bit of background first, but i'll try to keep it brief.

As far as romance goes I have never had much fortune. When I was younger I used to be a fat computer geek and on top of that I have a chronical illness which had an impact on both my social life and my education. Once my health started getting a bit better I felt pretty tired of school so I decided to try and make some money instead and work on a project I was very passionate about. I ended up spending alot of time, money and effort going nowhere(well, I did learn a great deal so I most certainly don't wish to come off as bitter or anything). Eventually I realized the need to move on to better things and I found a new passion. Now the last years I have put alot of effort working on and learning new things and just recently this got me accepted to a school I applied for. So all of a sudden(I really did not expect this to happen) I find myself in a pretty good place. It's like after many years of trying and failing I have gotten myself on the right track, creating a really great opportunity for me.

During several years I havent even seriously considered finding romance. I have just been too focused on other things. Now on the other hand certain events in my life has made me think about seriously pursuing romance. You know, i'm sort of in a situation where i'm quite happy with what I have become as a person and I think i'm on the right track. I like that, but...

As i've said I havent really gotten anywhere. At the moment I don't even have my own place to live, and I feel too old for that(nothing I can do right now though, more than wait). Then to be successfull with education and carreer it's going to take a huge amount of work. It's also difficult to predict where it would lead me, whatever way it goes I can't even say for sure if i'm going to stay in this country(probably am for a while atlest, but can't say for sure). I have two years of work booked up and after that it could lead in so many different directions. Of course, part of that is what excites me because there are so many different things I can do. However, i'm also thinking; what have I got to offer and will I just create more problems for myself?

Okay, so take this for what it is - I have just tried to summarize it very briefly to give you the general picture. The question istself can of course be looked at in a wider perspective. What i'm trying to figure out is when is it an appropriate moment to actually look for romance? I suppose my situation is not much different to any kid who goes to college, but on the other hand my intentions would be far more serious. So it's a difficult question for me and I would really appreciate any input on this.

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This is a question i've been pondering for a while. To understand whre i'm coming from I think I should give you a bit of background first, but i'll try to keep it brief.

As far as romance goes I have never had much fortune. When I was younger I used to be a fat computer geek and on top of that I have a chronical illness which had an impact on both my social life and my education. Once my health started getting a bit better I felt pretty tired of school so I decided to try and make some money instead and work on a project I was very passionate about. I ended up spending alot of time, money and effort going nowhere(well, I did learn a great deal so I most certainly don't wish to come off as bitter or anything). Eventually I realized the need to move on to better things and I found a new passion. Now the last years I have put alot of effort working on and learning new things and just recently this got me accepted to a school I applied for. So all of a sudden(I really did not expect this to happen) I find myself in a pretty good place. It's like after many years of trying and failing I have gotten myself on the right track, creating a really great opportunity for me.

During several years I havent even seriously considered finding romance. I have just been too focused on other things. Now on the other hand certain events in my life has made me think about seriously pursuing romance. You know, i'm sort of in a situation where i'm quite happy with what I have become as a person and I think i'm on the right track. I like that, but...

As i've said I havent really gotten anywhere. At the moment I don't even have my own place to live, and I feel too old for that(nothing I can do right now though, more than wait). Then to be successfull with education and carreer it's going to take a huge amount of work. It's also difficult to predict where it would lead me, whatever way it goes I can't even say for sure if i'm going to stay in this country(probably am for a while atlest, but can't say for sure). I have two years of work booked up and after that it could lead in so many different directions. Of course, part of that is what excites me because there are so many different things I can do. However, i'm also thinking; what have I got to offer and will I just create more problems for myself?

Okay, so take this for what it is - I have just tried to summarize it very briefly to give you the general picture. The question istself can of course be looked at in a wider perspective. What i'm trying to figure out is when is it an appropriate moment to actually look for romance? I suppose my situation is not much different to any kid who goes to college, but on the other hand my intentions would be far more serious. So it's a difficult question for me and I would really appreciate any input on this.

Red, with apologies, if this sounds trite, the time is now.

From what you say, you may not attract the obvious gold-digger types, but that's no bad thing. The joy that a good woman can bring into your life is boundless. I honestly don't think I would be who or where I am today without the influence of Mrs Stussy88 (though in the interests of balance, there would be far, far fewer pairs of shoes in my closet!).

I'm not saying it will be easy to meet the right woman and the search might be a long one, but it's a worthy search, especially if you are clear about the type of woman you want.

If you will permit me a personal anecdote, I was looking for a woman who was smart, self-aware, with a strong personal morality and a work ethic. As it goes the future Mrs Stussy88 was also dark haired and really attractive (to me anyway, and I always seemed to like dark-haired, slender women). I met her when I didn't really have any money or a home of my own at the time, so I know she wasn't just someone in pursuit of the dollar, but I think she could see some potential.

They are out there.

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What i'm trying to figure out is when is it an appropriate moment to actually look for romance?

Whenever you want to!

Engaging in the process of finding romance is a good idea even before you are ready for a serious relationship. By going out and dating you can learn a lot about women, what kind of women you prefer, and why. You can also learn and practice the social skills necessary to relate to women and to win the woman of your choice.

It may be years before you meet Her but, if you start seeking her now, then when you find her you will be ready.

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Red, with apologies, if this sounds trite, the time is now.

From what you say, you may not attract the obvious gold-digger types, but that's no bad thing. The joy that a good woman can bring into your life is boundless. I honestly don't think I would be who or where I am today without the influence of Mrs Stussy88 (though in the interests of balance, there would be far, far fewer pairs of shoes in my closet!).

I'm not saying it will be easy to meet the right woman and the search might be a long one, but it's a worthy search, especially if you are clear about the type of woman you want.

If you will permit me a personal anecdote, I was looking for a woman who was smart, self-aware, with a strong personal morality and a work ethic. As it goes the future Mrs Stussy88 was also dark haired and really attractive (to me anyway, and I always seemed to like dark-haired, slender women). I met her when I didn't really have any money or a home of my own at the time, so I know she wasn't just someone in pursuit of the dollar, but I think she could see some potential.

They are out there.

Thanks for the encouragement Stussy!

You are so right about the value of a good woman. This is something I did not understand until I actually met such a person I could fall for. Before that I used to think that there's no reason I should care too much about it, I got more important things to do, and i'm not really interested. Then I met someone who radically changed my views on romance. Unfortunately though it did not go the way I wanted, but it made me realize the value i'm missing.

Gold-digger types are certainly not for me, but I can understand women looking for some sort of "provider". On the other hand, i'm really not that type of person anyway. I mean, I havent exactly made my carreer choices based on financial security - I prefer puting effort into being able to handle whatever happens in life instead. I also prefer women who have a certain spirit, but perhaps with a bit more of a practical side that I lack.

It will definitely not be easy to find the right woman. I know this because I also know that I will only fall for the best, and that is incredibly rare. But that is also a very good argument to start searching now.

Whenever you want to!

Engaging in the process of finding romance is a good idea even before you are ready for a serious relationship. By going out and dating you can learn a lot about women, what kind of women you prefer, and why. You can also learn and practice the social skills necessary to relate to women and to win the woman of your choice.

It may be years before you meet Her but, if you start seeking her now, then when you find her you will be ready.

Thanks Betsy!

I can really appreciate what you are saying.

About a year ago I started a new job where I found myself in a rather pleasant situation, surrounded by young, intelligent and highly attractive women. One of them immediately caught my interest, and I did my best to pursue her. I think you can guess where that lead me if you consider I really knew nothing about women, but I certainly believed what most guys are taught in todays society. Talk about not being ready at all! For a long time I was caught in a lot of confusion until I realized I had blown every chance I migh have had.

After that I decided I would figure this stuff out entierly and completely. Considering my situation at work I also had a very good opportunity to do so. I also started to look into material by "dating-gurus" like Neil Strauss and David De'Angelo. Although I most certainly don't agree with everything they have to say, some things are just real eye openers. So after a lot of observation, interaction, a little bit of experimentation and a great deal of reading, I actually started to "get it". Now I have also integrated it with a rational philosophical base.

This is also one reason that i'm so keen on going out and start dating. It's sort of a natural step now that I think I have things sorted out pretty well. And it's also much more fun now that I think I understand things. Then of course it's just as you say, important to develop the right skills of communication(and I have found that it's great fun once you start to "get it"). My only concern has really been that this is the wrong time to go out and start dating, but I think the right thing to do is to just stop thinking so much about it and just go out and do it.

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I think you can guess where that lead me if you consider I really knew nothing about women, but I certainly believed what most guys are taught in todays society.

I'm curious, what were you taught that conflicted with reality?

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I think you can guess where that lead me if you consider I really knew nothing about women, but I certainly believed what most guys are taught in todays society.

I'm curious, what were you taught that conflicted with reality?

It's a good question, and a very interesting subject.

In todays society, although not expressed so explicitly, men are taught to be unselfish wusses. It's a situation where a lot of men who wants to treat a woman right act in every way to try and please a woman, in effect puting her above oneself. Then we also have the common idea that male sexuality is wrong, undignifying to women, and should be repressed. What a man actually wants and desires is said to be wrong, that is unless what the man wants and desires is to give up all his power to the woman and become her slave.

A lot of this comes from feminism, because feminists tend to fear and hate men. They fear assertiveness and integrity, men who can clearly communicate their values and don't give up any of their power. They are affraid of men who know what they want and know how to get it, because such men will never want them. Because of this they attack masculinity(and actually femininity too) and try to erase gender differences, and men who don't accept are often labeled as chauvinistic pigs.

This is of course very bad for women too, because it makes good men very hard to find. The most common types seem to be either wusses or jerks. Wusses will find it very difficult to attract women and often get bitter because the women they're after tend to go with the jerks instead. Jerks are much more successfull because part of their behaviour communicates the right things, and more importantly - they're not wusses. This is why women often fall for bad guys, because even though these guys may treat women like dirt they atleast do some things right that make them very attractive.

Personally I implicitly accepted the idea that I should in some sense live up to a woman. The actual result of such thinking is to value her above yourself and trust her judgement instead of your own. That is in effect what a lot of "nice guys", like myself, tend to do. It's also a very easy trap to fall into, especially when you don't have the right confidence and self-esteem. It sort of starts with the bad idea that you should be nice so she'll like you, and once you go down that road you're lost. And this is the sort of mentality that I see almost everywhere today and it's exacty what i've learned since I was a kid. Almost every advice I have ever seen has been focused on how I should be nice to make the woman like me, and the logical step after that is to begin thinking in terms like "gee, wonder if she likes me...". Do you see what i'm trying to get at? That whole kind of thinking is very second-handed and selfish behaviour in these cases are often scorned.

Now I find this a little bit difficult to explain clearly but I hope it answered your question. :)

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Now I find this a little bit difficult to explain clearly but I hope it answered your question. :)

It did, thank you, and I know what you're talking about. It's the same fraud perpetuated elsewhere: we're told that the choice is either to sacrifice ourselves or sacrifice others. So those who have respect for the rights of others choose to fall on their swords, giving free reign to the parasites (in this case, feminists).

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I think you can guess where that lead me if you consider I really knew nothing about women, but I certainly believed what most guys are taught in todays society.

I'm curious, what were you taught that conflicted with reality?

It's a good question, and a very interesting subject.

In todays society, although not expressed so explicitly, men are taught to be unselfish wusses. It's a situation where a lot of men who wants to treat a woman right act in every way to try and please a woman, in effect puting her above oneself. Then we also have the common idea that male sexuality is wrong, undignifying to women, and should be repressed. What a man actually wants and desires is said to be wrong, that is unless what the man wants and desires is to give up all his power to the woman and become her slave.

A lot of this comes from feminism, because feminists tend to fear and hate men. They fear assertiveness and integrity, men who can clearly communicate their values and don't give up any of their power. They are affraid of men who know what they want and know how to get it, because such men will never want them. Because of this they attack masculinity(and actually femininity too) and try to erase gender differences, and men who don't accept are often labeled as chauvinistic pigs.

This is of course very bad for women too, because it makes good men very hard to find. The most common types seem to be either wusses or jerks. Wusses will find it very difficult to attract women and often get bitter because the women they're after tend to go with the jerks instead. Jerks are much more successfull because part of their behaviour communicates the right things, and more importantly - they're not wusses. This is why women often fall for bad guys, because even though these guys may treat women like dirt they atleast do some things right that make them very attractive.

Personally I implicitly accepted the idea that I should in some sense live up to a woman. The actual result of such thinking is to value her above yourself and trust her judgement instead of your own. That is in effect what a lot of "nice guys", like myself, tend to do. It's also a very easy trap to fall into, especially when you don't have the right confidence and self-esteem. It sort of starts with the bad idea that you should be nice so she'll like you, and once you go down that road you're lost. And this is the sort of mentality that I see almost everywhere today and it's exacty what i've learned since I was a kid. Almost every advice I have ever seen has been focused on how I should be nice to make the woman like me, and the logical step after that is to begin thinking in terms like "gee, wonder if she likes me...". Do you see what i'm trying to get at? That whole kind of thinking is very second-handed and selfish behaviour in these cases are often scorned.

Now I find this a little bit difficult to explain clearly but I hope it answered your question. :)

It made good sense to me.

We have a term over here, i don't know if its made it to the states yet, but have you heard of the "metrosexual" ??

It epitomises the males you described early on, shorn of masculinity. Some of them have taken to wearing sarongs (!) and even make-up (!!)

Some women allegedly like them?? (except when they are ovulating obviously).

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I'm actually swedish, but i'm familiar with the term "metrosexual". As I understand it it's a term used for men with a big interest in grooming, clothing and fashion.

I don't think it's a good term to use for what I was trying to describe, because a guy can perfectly well be a metrosexual without having that sort of behaviour of an "unselfish wuss". But I do agree that metrosexuals cannot exactly be considered very masculine, atleast not in terms of their appearance. The most extreme of the "unselfish wusses" are however the kind of guys that if they actually manage to attract a woman, they sort of abdicate all their will and judgement and do everything to please her. I can't seem to find the right word for this, except a slang term that I think violates the forum rules, but you have probably seen these kind of guys. As soon as a woman catches them they suddenly dissappear and next time you hear from them, because their girlfriend is away for the weekend, they sound like they've been caught by a crazy religious sect and every other sentence begins with; "well my girlfriend/wife thinks that...". When you manage to spend some time with your friend he makes sure to get home before dark, because otherwise gilfriend/wife might get mad. You will know your friends soul is lost and devoured when he announces that they will have a kid and he has just given up his dream job because it was taking up too much time.

That would be the most extreme of the extreme wusses. The behaviour I tried to illustrate earlier follow similar principles but may appear a bit different. It's basicaly about giving away your power so that she might like you and your actions are focused on pleasing her.

Being a metrosexual does not necessarily mean acting in this manner. I think a lot of the metrosexual trends come from good marketing. From a marketing perspective it's great to have more men interesting in fashion and cosmetic products, and in todays society it's very easy for men to follow that trend.

Personally I can't complain too much about the metrosexual trend. I mean, i'm a fairly small guy with a pretty face. I look like ten years younger then I am, and those who seem to fancy my looks are either gay men or 15 year old girls. So thank goodness a bunch of men dress and act like ladies. Imagine in a few years, i'll be the next Clint Eastwood! All I will need to do is to sit around quietly and act cool... It's going to be fantastic! :)

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The most extreme of the "unselfish wusses" are however the kind of guys that if they actually manage to attract a woman, they sort of abdicate all their will and judgement and do everything to please her.

The saddest part is that doesn't please most women at all.

As I wrote in one of my "Femininity Essays":

It's fine for a man to be respectful and sensitive to a woman, but if he

allows her to overrule him or take charge of the relationship, he is

making a big mistake. After that, a woman may still like him -- as a

friend, buddy, or brother -- but all the romantic passion is gone.

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Sorry I havent replied to this for a while...

You are making a very good point there. I think these guys can only get women of poor self-esteem, who are equally out of touch with their sexuality.

Regarding being in the "drivers seat", do you think it's possible to get back there once the man has lost that position? I have seen many relationships end like that, but I have never seen any who got it working again.

By the way, i'm very curious about your Femininity Essays. :)

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Regarding being in the "drivers seat", do you think it's possible to get back there once the man has lost that position? I have seen many relationships end like that, but I have never seen any who got it working again.

I saw it happen once. A fellow I worked with -- lets call him "Joe" -- was interested in a woman -- let's call her "Susan" --who was attracted to men who used and discarded her. When this happened, she came to cry on Joe's shoulder, he empathized with her and consoled her, but it was tearing him apart.

I asked Joe what he wanted and he said, "Susan." We talked it over and I convinced him he had to go for what he wanted, make it clear what he didn't want, and stand by his decision. Eventually, Joe told Susan that she was picking the wrong kind of men, he was tired of hearing about it, and she had a month to decide whether she wanted to date more losers or she wanted to date him.

They were married four month later. :)

By the way, i'm very curious about your Femininity Essays. :)

I'll email them to you.

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I saw it happen once. A fellow I worked with -- lets call him "Joe" -- was interested in a woman -- let's call her "Susan" --who was attracted to men who used and discarded her. When this happened, she came to cry on Joe's shoulder, he empathized with her and consoled her, but it was tearing him apart.

I asked Joe what he wanted and he said, "Susan." We talked it over and I convinced him he had to go for what he wanted, make it clear what he didn't want, and stand by his decision. Eventually, Joe told Susan that she was picking the wrong kind of men, he was tired of hearing about it, and she had a month to decide whether she wanted to date more losers or she wanted to date him.

They were married four month later. :)

Wow, that's amazing! :)

Now I just have to ask what you think would be the most apropriate action in this situation...

You see, this whole thing with dating has been a bit difficult. I find it hard to summon enough interest, and if I do it's because the person reminds me of someone else... I suppose it's just a matter of time, atleast that's what people say. Perhaps it's true if I stay away from her. Problem is I recently met one of my old co-workers and she suggested I drop by my old job someday, for coffee, lunch or whatever, just to have a little chat with my friends there. Sounds very nice of course, but then I would have to meet her. I do like seeing her but not as friends/pals/whatever, that will just end of messing with my head and I don't like that.

The story goes back almost a year. I found her when I started a new job; I asked her out, I was turned down, and I found out she was already taken. No big deal, I thought, so from there I just tried making friends with her.

I was a little confused at first because she seemed to be showing some obvious signs of interest. First you hade the typical things, then she also had a weird habit of saying sort of out of context things. I think the message was something like; "I'm tempted, but you need more than good looks to get me"(or perhaps it was; "You're ugly, but i'll give you a chance", I don't know...). She would also give subtle hints like; "You're such a wuss!" or "Be a man!". I could probably write a book on weird things I still don't understand, but looking back at it I think there was some interest and I think she was patiently, over a long course of time, trying to give me hints on what to do.

Anyway, even if I had "got it" I figured I would just be nice and friendly and not do much unless she dumped her boyfriend first. So we got along fine and I think she knew where I stood. Eventually she did dump her boyfriend, not because of me though(it was just obviously a bad relationship).

I did try to ask her out again, but this time more as a friend(i'm not sure she got that part though), and she concluded it would never work. This was probably made with the worst timing ever(worse than I realized). So now things went really bad. She seemed rather upset with me plus she was chasing Mr. Perfcect.

Now, Mr. Perfect is the kind of man that can attract a crowd of women spying on him. He also seems like a very good guy; he's smart, well educated and very socially skilled. Pretty tough competition...

Once I realized I owed her an aplogy things got back to normal tough. She was even flirting with me at times, but I think I made the mistake of never taking the lead. I figured she's turned me down twice, so now it's up to her - if she wants to play I can play along, but I won't be taking any initiative. I was just happy we were back to normal. However, a few weeks before I was going to quit the job she, for no apparent reason, became very cold and distant. At times it seemed like she wanted nothing to do with me, like she was trying to avoid me. Other times it was like she made sure I noticed her, but always turning her attention to someone else. Very strange...

Anyway, this is just the main points of the story. I'm leaving out a lot of information, just trying to touch on the essentials.

What I personally think is that there might have been some interest from her part, but eventually I never "got it" and i screwed up. Along the way she finds someone who appears like a better choice and goes after him. Then at the end I have no clue what was going on, i'm pretty sure she's not interested though. So now i'm thinking... well, is it even possible to turn a situation like this around?

I'll email them to you.

Thanks! It was really good reading them, I liked them very much! :)

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I’ve had similar experiences. While I really can’t give you relationships advice, I do know that it’s pointless obsessing over what someone else may or may not be feeling. Unless you want to ruin the friendship by asking for a blow for blow (and possibly not getting an answer), I’d just say leave things as they are and move on. It’s not necessarily the case that you misread her, but it’s also not necessarily that she was waiting for action on your part. And since you made a move (twice) and she rejected you, it’s really for her to fix if there was some other way for things to happen. And as for the cold shoulder, have you asked her what's up? It may have nothing to do with you, and you're worrying for nothing. If that's the case, she could be unaware that she's acting differently towards you and change once you've called attention to it.

But then, I’ve never had any success in the love department so take all of that with a big grain of salt. :) I just know that I would have no patience for a situation like that.

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Problem is I recently met one of my old co-workers and she suggested I drop by my old job someday, for coffee, lunch or whatever, just to have a little chat with my friends there. Sounds very nice of course, but then I would have to meet her. I do like seeing her but not as friends/pals/whatever, that will just end of messing with my head and I don't like that.

The story goes back almost a year. I found her when I started a new job; I asked her out, I was turned down, and I found out she was already taken. No big deal, I thought, so from there I just tried making friends with her.

I was a little confused at first because she seemed to be showing some obvious signs of interest. First you hade the typical things, then she also had a weird habit of saying sort of out of context things. I think the message was something like; "I'm tempted, but you need more than good looks to get me"(or perhaps it was; "You're ugly, but i'll give you a chance", I don't know...). She would also give subtle hints like; "You're such a wuss!" or "Be a man!". I could probably write a book on weird things I still don't understand, but looking back at it I think there was some interest and I think she was patiently, over a long course of time, trying to give me hints on what to do.

Anyway, even if I had "got it" I figured I would just be nice and friendly and not do much unless she dumped her boyfriend first. So we got along fine and I think she knew where I stood. Eventually she did dump her boyfriend, not because of me though(it was just obviously a bad relationship).

I did try to ask her out again, but this time more as a friend(i'm not sure she got that part though), and she concluded it would never work. This was probably made with the worst timing ever(worse than I realized). So now things went really bad. She seemed rather upset with me plus she was chasing Mr. Perfcect.

Now, Mr. Perfect is the kind of man that can attract a crowd of women spying on him. He also seems like a very good guy; he's smart, well educated and very socially skilled. Pretty tough competition...

Once I realized I owed her an aplogy things got back to normal tough. She was even flirting with me at times, but I think I made the mistake of never taking the lead. I figured she's turned me down twice, so now it's up to her - if she wants to play I can play along, but I won't be taking any initiative. I was just happy we were back to normal. However, a few weeks before I was going to quit the job she, for no apparent reason, became very cold and distant. At times it seemed like she wanted nothing to do with me, like she was trying to avoid me. Other times it was like she made sure I noticed her, but always turning her attention to someone else. Very strange...

Anyway, this is just the main points of the story. I'm leaving out a lot of information, just trying to touch on the essentials.

What I personally think is that there might have been some interest from her part, but eventually I never "got it" and i screwed up. Along the way she finds someone who appears like a better choice and goes after him. Then at the end I have no clue what was going on, i'm pretty sure she's not interested though. So now i'm thinking... well, is it even possible to turn a situation like this around?

You'll never know until you try.

First, I suggest you decide what you want and why. Also decide what you don't want and why. Then communicate that to her with appropriate "I" messages. (An "I" message is a statement of a fact or facts and how you evaluate those facts.)

You might say --

I have always enjoyed being with you because (facts). I particularly like (facts about her).

When you (do something she did) or say (something she said) I think you are flirting with me, but I have been getting mixed signals too. Maybe you have mixed feelings, and that's OK, but I don't. I want to spend time with you and know where I stand with you one way or another.

I would like to ask you out but I'm also reluctant because you've turned me down twice before.

I think you should go out with me because (facts about you she might enjoy about you or enjoy doing with you on a date).

I'm not (Mr. Perfect), but I am (your virtues) and I am seriously interested in you.

Etc.

Be clear and decisive about what you want and make sure she knows it.

Good luck!

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I’ve had similar experiences. While I really can’t give you relationships advice, I do know that it’s pointless obsessing over what someone else may or may not be feeling. Unless you want to ruin the friendship by asking for a blow for blow (and possibly not getting an answer), I’d just say leave things as they are and move on. It’s not necessarily the case that you misread her, but it’s also not necessarily that she was waiting for action on your part. And since you made a move (twice) and she rejected you, it’s really for her to fix if there was some other way for things to happen. And as for the cold shoulder, have you asked her what's up? It may have nothing to do with you, and you're worrying for nothing. If that's the case, she could be unaware that she's acting differently towards you and change once you've called attention to it.

But then, I’ve never had any success in the love department so take all of that with a big grain of salt. :) I just know that I would have no patience for a situation like that.

I think you are absolutely right that I should not obsess about such things. It's not going to lead anywhere so... better focus on more productive things. Here's the way I see it though...

She may or may not have showed interest before, either way it's probably gone now. Last time I saw her she was acting a bit weird - maybe it had nothing to do with me or maybe she just hates my guts. That was during the last days on that job, and it was a job I really loved so I was not very happy at the time and did not feel like confronting her with anything. Now that both of us have gained a little distance i'm instead thinking if it's possible to create the right feelings, by starting to communicate and act the right way.

What makes me a bit reluctant is that I don't want to be a pain in the neck. Other than that I think it makes sense.

When it comes to patience it's usually not one of my biggest virtues, but if i'm right about this one then she's worth it.

You'll never know until you try.

First, I suggest you decide what you want and why. Also decide what you don't want and why. Then communicate that to her with appropriate "I" messages. (An "I" message is a statement of a fact or facts and how you evaluate those facts.)

You might say --

I have always enjoyed being with you because (facts). I particularly like (facts about her).

When you (do something she did) or say (something she said) I think you are flirting with me, but I have been getting mixed signals too. Maybe you have mixed feelings, and that's OK, but I don't. I want to spend time with you and know where I stand with you one way or another.

I would like to ask you out but I'm also reluctant because you've turned me down twice before.

I think you should go out with me because (facts about you she might enjoy about you or enjoy doing with you on a date).

I'm not (Mr. Perfect), but I am (your virtues) and I am seriously interested in you.

Etc.

Be clear and decisive about what you want and make sure she knows it.

Good luck!

Thanks for the great advice!

I think I will set up a few objectives. First when I meet her the next time i'll just relax, have fun och catch up with everyone before anything else. Then, assuming she's still single, i'll probably have to put my foot down a few times, because then she's likely going to give me the old "poor me, i'm too old to find a good man". It could actually create a good opening to tell her that she must be old because she's getting blind for what's right in front of her... Then i'll just try and make my position clear, like you suggest. All I really want to begin with is a little bit of her time, to find out where that could lead.

Anyway... one thing i'm not sure of is how to communicate my virtues. She should know me pretty well already, and I bet "Mr Perfect" could match almost everything I can come up with(and he's probably better than me in some aspects). However, I think I could give this lady something that noone else will offer. She's a person with some mixed up premises; she seems to hold both selfish and altruistic ideas, in a dangerous way. I think she's a person who really needs to shrug and focus all her great energy elsewhere. However, she's not likely to do that herself(she lacks the tools and her pride will get in the way). I think I could bring out the best in her, but only if I could meet her under better circumstances and invite her to "my world". I just don't know how to communicate this to her and spark enough interest.

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However, I think I could give this lady something that noone else will offer. She's a person with some mixed up premises; she seems to hold both selfish and altruistic ideas, in a dangerous way. I think she's a person who really needs to shrug and focus all her great energy elsewhere. However, she's not likely to do that herself(she lacks the tools and her pride will get in the way). I think I could bring out the best in her, but only if I could meet her under better circumstances and invite her to "my world". I just don't know how to communicate this to her and spark enough interest.

You could recommend The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged. Maybe she will pick up some important ideas from them and you can also see how she reacts sense of life-wise. To get her to read them, engage her curiosity. You might just casually make a statement like, "You're so much like _____, a character in one of my favorite books." That often works for me. :)

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I have thought ot that but i'm not sure she's ready for it. I could be underestimating her of course, but I think she's a very practical minded person who thinks in concretes. I have found many persons like that who can enjoy Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead but fail to make the connection to "the real world" - like somehow ideas get disconnected from reality. This is something I noticed with her one time when I wanted to see how she would respond to a few pieces of art. To some she reacted positively, sense of life-wise, but some piece were just strange to her, like she would look at it in it's concrete form without geting the idea. On the other hand, Atlas Shrugged would communicate the ideas much better than that... maybe it could work.

Perhaps it's worth a shot, I don't think I have much to lose. Maybe I will just start calling her Dagny, to the point where she gets both annoyed and curious before I explain. That should really get her attention. :)

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I have thought ot that but i'm not sure she's ready for it. I could be underestimating her of course, but I think she's a very practical minded person who thinks in concretes. I have found many persons like that who can enjoy Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead but fail to make the connection to "the real world" - like somehow ideas get disconnected from reality.

I don't want to presume too much, but is it she or you who isn't ready for it? The idea of sharing such a personal value with someone, and the possibility of rejection, makes anyone a little anxious, but if she's important to you why would you keep it from her? I think there are few people I am friends with who don't know something about Objectivism because of my contact with them. I'm not out trying to "convert" people, but in the course of any friendship things come up that prompt me to say something about my values. It's your decision, but I can't imagine getting close to someone without them knowing what's important to me. Yes, there's a risk that she won't like Ayn Rand, but just think of how much richer things will be between you if she enjoys one of the novels!

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I think bborg is right. It could also be an indication of whether she is right for you or not. If she really likes and understands it, it may bring her to like you alot more. I recommended Atlas Shrugged to a girl once, and after reading it, she told me the whole time she was thinking, "Wow, this book is so Zak!". (Actually, this has happened more a few times, but I only wanted to date one girl.) If she can have that reaction, maybe it will turn her on to your virtues and values and show her what you have that "Mr. Perfect" may not.

It's worth a try. If she doesn't like it - oh well. There's plenty more girls out there. I think your idea of calling her Dagny - maybe by "accident" a few times is pretty good. Good luck.

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Well, I have to admit that i'm a little bit afraid of geting disappointed. Imean, the usual response from people when you present them with great ideas is that they will hate you - a few will even act to destroy you. Over the years I have encountered not even a handful of people who have actually responded positively and even thanked me for presenting them to Objectivism. So with this lady i'm of course hoping that she will be something really special and that my judgement of her is correct. I can see the potential, but because I have never discussed more philosophical questions with her I cannot be sure. And if i'm wrong... On the other hand, I don't know until I try, and I don't atually have anything to lose(if she's not the right one, then she's not the right one...).

But then there's another issue. I remember with myself that I had to arrive at a few conclusions before I was ready to take in a whole new philosophy. Change takes time and there's a lot to process. And with this girl i'm just not sure where she's at. But she has suprised me before, so maybe she'll do that again...

I think calling her Dagny could be a good way of sparking her curiosity, plus I enjoy a little friendly teasing. It's also something she will understand very soon if she reads the book. Her situation is very similar in that she's working herself to death on a sinking ship driven by incompetent management, and she's pulling a lot of weight for the others. I think she can relate to Dagny.

The hardest part with all of this though is that i'm not likely going to meet her that often, unless I manage to date her of course, so it will be difficult to follow up on things. Ah well, i'll meet her in a couple of weeks and see how it goes.

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I was 17 when I read The Fountainhead. If, before that time, I was asked what book had most affected my beliefs I would have said The Jungle, by Upton Sinclair. While I would not have identified as a socialist, I was poisoned and Ayn Rand helped to siphon out that poison. If a person is honest and interested in knowing about reality, they will take her ideas seriously, and they don’t need to be an Ayn Rand hero to do it. Their beliefs and their psycho-epistemology may make the integration difficult, which is all the more reason to get to them early rather than later. If you care about your friend and you think she will respond well, don’t wait. And good luck. :)

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Well, I have to admit that I'm a little bit afraid of getting disappointed.

You might be. Occasional disappointment is part of the process of finding and winning the woman who is right for you.

I mean, the usual response from people when you present them with great ideas is that they will hate you - a few will even act to destroy you. Over the years I have encountered not even a handful of people who have actually responded positively and even thanked me for presenting them to Objectivism.

That never happened to me, but I'm very picky about who I share my philosophy with. Also, I say very little and let Ayn Rand do the selling. If she can't convince them, I certainly can't.

So with this lady I'm of course hoping that she will be something really special and that my judgment of her is correct. I can see the potential, but because I have never discussed more philosophical questions with her I cannot be sure. And if I'm wrong... On the other hand, I don't know until I try, and I don't actually have anything to lose(if she's not the right one, then she's not the right one...).

That's the spirit! Nothing ventured, nothing gained and faint heart never won fair lady.

But then there's another issue. I remember with myself that I had to arrive at a few conclusions before I was ready to take in a whole new philosophy. Change takes time and there's a lot to process. And with this girl I'm just not sure where she's at. But she has surprised me before, so maybe she'll do that again...

If she likes Ayn Rand on a sense of life level, you have won. The rest will -- and should -- take time.

I think calling her Dagny could be a good way of sparking her curiosity, plus I enjoy a little friendly teasing. It's also something she will understand very soon if she reads the book. Her situation is very similar in that she's working herself to death on a sinking ship driven by incompetent management, and she's pulling a lot of weight for the others. I think she can relate to Dagny.

Calling her Dagny sounds a bit odd. I would just say what you wrote above about the similarity of their situations. You might say something like, "I wonder if you will handle things the way she did," and leave it to her curiosity to find out how Dagny handled it by reading Atlas. You might even lend her "your copy" -- i.e., any extra copy you have or can get. That way if she accepts, she'll feel some obligation to read to book and get back to you.

The hardest part with all of this though is that I'm not likely going to meet her that often, unless I manage to date her of course, so it will be difficult to follow up on things. Ah well, I'll meet her in a couple of weeks and see how it goes.

If she takes the bait, you can always follow up with email and telephone calls. Modern technology is your friend. :)

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I'm sorry I havent replied here in a long time. Things have just been crazy and when i've had the time to think I have just been too tired... not that i'm complaining, but I do wish I could write here more often.

Anyway, I just met her a few days ago and now I have way too many things to think about again...

If she likes Ayn Rand on a sense of life level, you have won. The rest will -- and should -- take time.

The one thing that caught my interest from the first day I met her, and something I have andmired greatly ever since, is her incredible spirit. I have never seen anything like it. So if it's about the sense of life, then I really need to get her the read Ayn Rand.

If she takes the bait, you can always follow up with email and telephone calls. Modern technology is your friend. ;)

Well, that's true. :D

It's just that until recently I could only contact her at work, which i'm not that confortable with. Anyway, as I mentioned earlier I was over at my old job and met her a few days ago... I better tell how that went.

Remembering how it was before I quit the job I was not expecting much, but when I got there... I think this lady has missed me A LOT(unless she was just trying to hug me to death :rolleyes: ). Of course there could be many reasons for that, but atleast I can be sure we are OK.

As usual when I talk to her I tend to forget those important things I was going to say. We talked mostly about school and work, but I think I managed to make a couple of thigs clear. The message I was trying to get across was something like; "I want you with me, you should come over to where i'm at", to which she replied; "Maybe I will, you never know...". Whatever that means. When I left she seemed to be expecting something more, but I could not come up with anything good to say so I let it be. We just agreed to keep in touch.

So where to take it from there? I figured I would just try to send her an obvious flirt; sent her a friend request on facebook, making it clear that "friends" would be "just to begin with". I think I made my intentions clear, and she accepted that so... atleast she should know what I want.

Anyway... right now i'm thinking if I should either just go straight for it or try to play the Atlas-card first.

Either I could tell her something like; "Hey, come over and have lunch with me next week. We can meet up at [location] and i'll take you to a place nearby - the food there is pretty good, and either way it's going to be fun and i'll make it the best lunch you ever had. Does wednsday work for you?". Maybe a bit too cocky but I don't want to ask too nicely either.

Or I could try; "I was just reading one of my favourite books again and I kept thinking how this main character reminds me of you...".

I don't know which is the best way to go. Trying to get her out again is a bit of a gamble, it's great if it works and pretty bad if it fails. With Atlas i'm not sure I can get her to read it. Even if she gets interested she's a busy woman with a lot of other books to read(I know because I once helped her carry what would amount to a small library).

Ah, these difficult questions in life. I think I need to sleep a bit on this one, but better make up my mind soon. Any ideas and suggestions would be appreciated. ;)

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Either I could tell her something like; "Hey, come over and have lunch with me next week. We can meet up at [location] and i'll take you to a place nearby - the food there is pretty good, and either way it's going to be fun and i'll make it the best lunch you ever had. Does wednsday work for you?". Maybe a bit too cocky but I don't want to ask too nicely either.

Or I could try; "I was just reading one of my favourite books again and I kept thinking how this main character reminds me of you...".

I don't know which is the best way to go. Trying to get her out again is a bit of a gamble, it's great if it works and pretty bad if it fails. With Atlas i'm not sure I can get her to read it. Even if she gets interested she's a busy woman with a lot of other books to read(I know because I once helped her carry what would amount to a small library).

Ah, these difficult questions in life. I think I need to sleep a bit on this one, but better make up my mind soon. Any ideas and suggestions would be appreciated. ;)

There is a subtle difference between what Betsy suggested with the "Atlas-card" and what you are proposing here, though you may just be paraphrasing: unless she REALLY does remind you of so and so character, or is handling such-and-such situation (in principle) from the book, DO NOT try to make that connection. If she doesn't remind you specifically of Dagny, don't say that she does. And I mean SPECIFICALLY remind you. I suggest you take that very seriously. The girl will be ok, and your (possible) relationship won't be particularly endangered, at least not explicitly, but what will happen is you will sever your connection to AS, or Fountainhead, whichever you choose to use. Betrayal may be a strong word, but that is the risk you would be running if you tried to do that. Just make sure that you aren't misrepresenting either Ayn Rand's work or yourself, is all I am saying. You both deserve better.

I have been reading this thread with some interest, having lots of thoughts, nodding at the description of your situation and silently applauding many of the suggestions and observations that have come in for you, but I haven't felt like I had any specific advice to give you except to say, "Go for it, Darn it!" But I think I might have a couple pieces of helpful advice after all.

First, I understand what you mean when you said that you "tend to forget those important things I was going to say." This isn't uncommon, and believe it or not, all you need is practice. What you are essentially doing in those moments is preparing to tap into your deepest values, so there is going to be a lot of different ideas competing for speaking time, and they tend to clog things up instead of rolling off the tongue like poetry (perhaps why a lot of non-professional romantics rely on poetry --there's or other's-- to describe what they are thinking...mnemonic enhancer). Since you don't have time to practice ;) I have a suggestion that has helped me when I got to that critical moment where I was going to say something that I think needs to be perfect, or will be deep and thoughtful and get a particular reaction. What I do is describe --to them-- what is going on in my head. I would say something like, "You know, I had something that I was going to say just now, that was going to knock your socks off, but I can't get it out. It was important too, something that I have been thinking about a lot, and I wanted it to be perfect, -like you- (whoops, hold off on that, too soon :rolleyes: ) That is what happens when I try and talk to you, its like it matters too much to me, and I want to say everything that matters to me but there is just too much. I feel like I'm out of breath or out of time, like the thing that is going to save my life is right in front of me but slipping through my grasp..." Just be honest with her, and with yourself. Use a description of what your thinking as a way of engaging your principles. And don't worry at all about how she is going to react to something like that. At the very worst, she is going to have a newfound respect for you which will be surprising in its depth.

Second, you seem to have introspected quite a bit about the whole "nice guy" thing. Here is my observation on "the nice guy" and unfortunately it sounds rather crude, but it seems relevant to your situation, so don't take it the wrong way: "nice guys" tend to be manipulative. I'm not talking about wiling away the hours in their volcano labs, twisting their moustaches, I just mean that when they are going after the girl, they tend to use a situation or an object (usually their own body i.e. shoulder to cry on, human book trolley, etc.) as a lever for foisting their values on someone. It is obviously an unnecessary step, especially if you are on hugging terms. :D The use of that leverage is usually to establish a concrete value that can't be questioned (what can I say, book trolleys are valuable), sort of a foundation for stacking all of your core values on for their admiration. The problem with that is that foundation is simply not strong enough to support the immense weight, the staggering gravity of your deeply held values, especially as an objectivist. You hold your values too clearly and consistently. You need a much more solid foundation to build upon then one shoulder, and based on her hug, it sounds like you have that. Now its time to expose your deepest values to her. Like bborg suggests above, you may not be entirely ready to put your values at risk like that, but you have to know that it will be ok. Roark is the shining example of this. Those values you hold are simply untouchable. I doubted it early in my life but experience has taught me that the Roark characterization is spot on. There simply isn't anything she can say or do to harm that part of you: only you have that capability. I should note here that your vision of what kind of person she is, and what your relationship could be like, is one of those values. Just keep in mind that any dissappointment you might feel if that doesn't pan out has nothing to do with the value itself (your vision of the ideal). Its more like, and about as transient, as knocking on the wrong door in an apartment building. Your values will shine even then.

So if you have an ace up your sleeve, or a critical stage in your master plan to get this girl, I say play it now. Tiptoeing around this will haunt you forever, but you will never regret giving it your best shot. In fact, that is probably the ONE thing you won't regret about this. Do it now. I like your "lunch you will never forget" idea. Regardless of what happens, it will be unforgettable, and something that will make you proud for a long time.

Well, I hope there was some useful info there. Actually, I hope you're not even reading this and have already made your move. Maybe next time we see you you'll be soaring on good vibes

Because that is exactly how you'll feel if she says "Yes."

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