Red

When to look for romance?

45 posts in this topic

Well, I have to admit that i'm a little bit afraid of geting disappointed.
Fear of rejection is normal for someone who is honestly interested in someone else. It's ok to fear it, but don't let it stop you from acting in pursuit of your values. If you like this girl, let her know and ask her out. It could be something as simple as: "I like you and would like to get to know you better. Would you like to get some coffee on Saturday?"
I can see the potential, but because I have never discussed more philosophical questions with her I cannot be sure. And if i'm wrong... On the other hand, I don't know until I try, and I don't atually have anything to lose(if she's not the right one, then she's not the right one...).
Don't put the cart before the horse. If you haven't discussed philosophical questions with her, then you don't know what her philosophy is. But more importantly -- and this is based on the few things I know about from your posts -- it sounds like you don't really know her. If that's the case, focus on step one: you need to spend some time talking with her. Ask her out for something that doesn't require a big commitment on her part, that would be casual enough for her to feel comfortable. Asking her out for coffee is cliched, but ok. She gets that you're interested, and you can spend maybe half an hour getting to know her.
But then there's another issue. I remember with myself that I had to arrive at a few conclusions before I was ready to take in a whole new philosophy. Change takes time and there's a lot to process. And with this girl i'm just not sure where she's at. But she has suprised me before, so maybe she'll do that again...
What's your purpose here: to take out a girl on one date? to marry her? to change her whole philosophical outlook and thinking processes? Women used to hear about free milk and cows, but some guys need to learn the equivalent: it can really turn off a woman to have some guy she doesn't know all that well fawning over her. It comes off as immature, insecure, and desparate. Don't rush to conclusions about her until you've spent enough time with her (i.e., gone out on several dates, spoken on the phone for hours, etc.) to the point where you don't have to guess about the questions you've posted here, because you already know the answers regarding her.

So put out of your mind, for now, issues about changing her philososphy or whether she's "the one." You need to know whether or not she's worthy of more than just a date or two. That's the premise behind the actions of a guy who values himself. Focus for now on just asking her out. Take it one step at a time.

I think calling her Dagny could be a good way of sparking her curiosity, plus I enjoy a little friendly teasing.
Maybe, but it's not something I would do. Teasing or flirting is best left to being spontaneous in the moment and to something concretely connected to her. Calling her Dagny sounds like something that pertains to more of your idea of what you'd like her to be, let alone what you think she is now or what she actually is. I think it would backfire.

As far as the issue of bringing up Objectivism goes, I would hold off unless she brings it up. Maybe she's already read Ayn Rand; ask her what her favorite books are, if there are books that had an impact on her, what she's reading now, etc., as open-ended questions that you can use to clue in to what she values, whether she enjoys reading (and if so, what), and she may turn the question around and ask what books you like... and there you go. But I wouldn't make that a primary for now; focus on learning what she cares about and likes to do with her time. Rather than trying to push her into being your image of what she could be, you're now focused on who she actually is.

Focus for now on learning about who she is and having fun with her -- period. Find out what you have in common, what she values, what her hobbies are, etc. Dating is for two whole people, with all of their qualities, not just philosophy, so don't turn a first date into a sales pitch; you'll likely kill whatever interest she has.

Good luck, and have fun.

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Thanks for the great input Styg! I'll coment on that a little later, but let me start with this:

Well, I hope there was some useful info there. Actually, I hope you're not even reading this and have already made your move. Maybe next time we see you you'll be soaring on good vibes

Because that is exactly how you'll feel if she says "Yes."

After sleeping on it for a while I figured that my thinking is just worried and insecure, like I just can't believe any of it would work. Looking at the facts though I can't see any obvious reason why she would turn me down. Maybe if she's taken already(I never bothered to ask) or if she's just interested in friendship and don't want to give the wrong idea. The latter can perhaps be solved, but the former is more difficult(although not impossible I suppose). Still, the only way I will ever know is if I go for it. So thats what I did.

I wrote her a message that would translate to something like:

"Remember when we talked last time and I told you I want you to come over to see me? As usual you were being a little difficult/hard to get(stop that :rolleyes: ), but you know I was serious.

I want you to come over and have lunch with me this week. It's been a long time ago since last time we had that, and i'm not that far away.

We can meet up at [location] and go to a place where I usually eat. It's nothing fancy or glamourus but the food is usually pretty good, and the most important thing is to just have a good time. Besides it could be the best lunch you ever had. ;)

Just make sure you have a little extra time, and if you're interested I can show you a little bit of what i'm doing here.

How about thursday?"

Well, I don't know how she's going to take it but i'll know soon enough. My bet is that she's going to take 2-3 days to respond and then come up with some lame excuse(probably just to test me). If she say's "yes" right away then i'll know she wants me.

If she tells me it will never work because she just wants to be friends, then I suppose all I can say is; "I don't, I wan't you".

If she tells me she's already taken, all I can say is i'm sorry because it would be my fault she chose the wrong guy.

Anyway, that's what i'm thinking right now. I'll see what happens.

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Fear of rejection is normal for someone who is honestly interested in someone else. It's ok to fear it, but don't let it stop you from acting in pursuit of your values. If you like this girl, let her know and ask her out. It could be something as simple as: "I like you and would like to get to know you better. Would you like to get some coffee on Saturday?"

First time I asked her out I had to write her a note because I failed to speak. You may call that pathetic(however I did manage to pull it off with a little style and humour ;) ), but atleast I can say that I will never let fear hold me back.

Don't put the cart before the horse. If you haven't discussed philosophical questions with her, then you don't know what her philosophy is. But more importantly -- and this is based on the few things I know about from your posts -- it sounds like you don't really know her. If that's the case, focus on step one: you need to spend some time talking with her. Ask her out for something that doesn't require a big commitment on her part, that would be casual enough for her to feel comfortable. Asking her out for coffee is cliched, but ok. She gets that you're interested, and you can spend maybe half an hour getting to know her.

What's your purpose here: to take out a girl on one date? to marry her? to change her whole philosophical outlook and thinking processes? Women used to hear about free milk and cows, but some guys need to learn the equivalent: it can really turn off a woman to have some guy she doesn't know all that well fawning over her. It comes off as immature, insecure, and desparate. Don't rush to conclusions about her until you've spent enough time with her (i.e., gone out on several dates, spoken on the phone for hours, etc.) to the point where you don't have to guess about the questions you've posted here, because you already know the answers regarding her.

In a way I know her very well, but in some ways my judgement is a bit too rushed and based on too many assumptions. I think the problem is that i'm often very good at judging people, and I can make quick and accurate judgements. In this case, because we are very much alike in some ways, I have been able to do so right from the start. During the time i've known her she has also confirmed most things.

Now the stupid thing is that since I quickly got the sense of knowing her I have not spent enough time actually talking to her about some things. For example i've never had to ask her about her political views. I have just assumed she's a "social liberal", which seems fairly accurate because now that i've seen her Facebook-profile it says "liberal"(which usually means the same thing here in sweden). My point being; why ask if I already know? Well, now I know...

I think we have always had some sort of mutual understanding of each other. This is something we have both confirmed explicitly. On the other hand I also think that she thinks I don't know her all that well, if that makes any sense at all.... The problem I think is that there are too many assumptions, probably accurate assumptions but still assumptions. So usually i'm pretty confident in the way I know her, but then when she acts in a way I don't understand... well, that's why I have all sorts of weird questions going around in my head at times.

Don't get me wrong though, I have spent a lot of time with her already so I do have a lot of solid facts too. It's just some conclusions are rushed, and so is my emotional response.

So put out of your mind, for now, issues about changing her philososphy or whether she's "the one." You need to know whether or not she's worthy of more than just a date or two. That's the premise behind the actions of a guy who values himself. Focus for now on just asking her out. Take it one step at a time.

That's what I will do.

Maybe, but it's not something I would do. Teasing or flirting is best left to being spontaneous in the moment and to something concretely connected to her. Calling her Dagny sounds like something that pertains to more of your idea of what you'd like her to be, let alone what you think she is now or what she actually is. I think it would backfire.

Point taken.

As far as the issue of bringing up Objectivism goes, I would hold off unless she brings it up. Maybe she's already read Ayn Rand; ask her what her favorite books are, if there are books that had an impact on her, what she's reading now, etc., as open-ended questions that you can use to clue in to what she values, whether she enjoys reading (and if so, what), and she may turn the question around and ask what books you like... and there you go. But I wouldn't make that a primary for now; focus on learning what she cares about and likes to do with her time. Rather than trying to push her into being your image of what she could be, you're now focused on who she actually is.

I think the idea if bringing up Ojbectivism would be just to bring up a story I think she can relate to and something that could appeal to her fundamental values. But I think I will start with simpler things first. However, let me just say that I do know quite a bit about what she values, cares about and likes to do with her time.

Focus for now on learning about who she is and having fun with her -- period. Find out what you have in common, what she values, what her hobbies are, etc. Dating is for two whole people, with all of their qualities, not just philosophy, so don't turn a first date into a sales pitch; you'll likely kill whatever interest she has.

She values justice, glamour and the good in life. She likes art and fashion, and aside fron shopping her hobbies would be painting, playing piano and designing clothes. Her favourite movies are french and I would bet most of them are romantic. She loves New York.

I'm just saying I havent spent all my time just looking into her beautiful eyes. ;)

You are right though, my focus should be on having a good time with her and geting to know her better. And, actually let her get to know me better. That's also very important because i'm sometimes bad at communicating my values clearly, and I don't want her to be confused about who I am.

Good luck, and have fun.

Thanks! :rolleyes:

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There is a subtle difference between what Betsy suggested with the "Atlas-card" and what you are proposing here, though you may just be paraphrasing: unless she REALLY does remind you of so and so character, or is handling such-and-such situation (in principle) from the book, DO NOT try to make that connection. If she doesn't remind you specifically of Dagny, don't say that she does. And I mean SPECIFICALLY remind you. I suggest you take that very seriously. The girl will be ok, and your (possible) relationship won't be particularly endangered, at least not explicitly, but what will happen is you will sever your connection to AS, or Fountainhead, whichever you choose to use. Betrayal may be a strong word, but that is the risk you would be running if you tried to do that. Just make sure that you aren't misrepresenting either Ayn Rand's work or yourself, is all I am saying. You both deserve better.

She does actually remind me specifically of Dagny. I'm not saying she is a Dagny, but there are similarities. However, I usually don't like making those kinds of references and I don't think Dagny would be my type, so I i'm only thinking about a few similarities. So I don't intend to make anything more out of it than there actually is.

I have been reading this thread with some interest, having lots of thoughts, nodding at the description of your situation and silently applauding many of the suggestions and observations that have come in for you, but I haven't felt like I had any specific advice to give you except to say, "Go for it, Darn it!" But I think I might have a couple pieces of helpful advice after all.

First, I understand what you mean when you said that you "tend to forget those important things I was going to say." This isn't uncommon, and believe it or not, all you need is practice. What you are essentially doing in those moments is preparing to tap into your deepest values, so there is going to be a lot of different ideas competing for speaking time, and they tend to clog things up instead of rolling off the tongue like poetry (perhaps why a lot of non-professional romantics rely on poetry --there's or other's-- to describe what they are thinking...mnemonic enhancer). Since you don't have time to practice ;) I have a suggestion that has helped me when I got to that critical moment where I was going to say something that I think needs to be perfect, or will be deep and thoughtful and get a particular reaction. What I do is describe --to them-- what is going on in my head. I would say something like, "You know, I had something that I was going to say just now, that was going to knock your socks off, but I can't get it out. It was important too, something that I have been thinking about a lot, and I wanted it to be perfect, -like you- (whoops, hold off on that, too soon :rolleyes: ) That is what happens when I try and talk to you, its like it matters too much to me, and I want to say everything that matters to me but there is just too much. I feel like I'm out of breath or out of time, like the thing that is going to save my life is right in front of me but slipping through my grasp..." Just be honest with her, and with yourself. Use a description of what your thinking as a way of engaging your principles. And don't worry at all about how she is going to react to something like that. At the very worst, she is going to have a newfound respect for you which will be surprising in its depth.

This is really good advice and I have been thinking of doing something like that.

I know that if she agrees to go out with me... well, i'll be thrilled of course and everything will be perfect sort of up until I meet her. Then i'll lend her my arm and walk to where we are going, and all the while i'll be thinking; "Well, i'm walking here with the most beautiful lady i've ever seen, she's agreed to go out with me and I can't think of anything to say".

I have also found this emotionally very disturbing in the past. There are many times i've tried to tell her something and it just goes all wrong, and it's really frustrating feeling that i'm unable to get her because I can't speak my mind clearly. Also the more I value her the more difficult it is.

With time i've gotten better at it, but then there are those moments...

One potential problem with what you are suggesting is that it can easily go into kind of emotional territory. I better avoid that. Other than that though, it's always best to be open and honest and just say it how it is.

Second, you seem to have introspected quite a bit about the whole "nice guy" thing. Here is my observation on "the nice guy" and unfortunately it sounds rather crude, but it seems relevant to your situation, so don't take it the wrong way: "nice guys" tend to be manipulative. I'm not talking about wiling away the hours in their volcano labs, twisting their moustaches, I just mean that when they are going after the girl, they tend to use a situation or an object (usually their own body i.e. shoulder to cry on, human book trolley, etc.) as a lever for foisting their values on someone. It is obviously an unnecessary step, especially if you are on hugging terms. ;) The use of that leverage is usually to establish a concrete value that can't be questioned (what can I say, book trolleys are valuable), sort of a foundation for stacking all of your core values on for their admiration. The problem with that is that foundation is simply not strong enough to support the immense weight, the staggering gravity of your deeply held values, especially as an objectivist. You hold your values too clearly and consistently. You need a much more solid foundation to build upon then one shoulder, and based on her hug, it sounds like you have that. Now its time to expose your deepest values to her. Like bborg suggests above, you may not be entirely ready to put your values at risk like that, but you have to know that it will be ok. Roark is the shining example of this. Those values you hold are simply untouchable. I doubted it early in my life but experience has taught me that the Roark characterization is spot on. There simply isn't anything she can say or do to harm that part of you: only you have that capability. I should note here that your vision of what kind of person she is, and what your relationship could be like, is one of those values. Just keep in mind that any dissappointment you might feel if that doesn't pan out has nothing to do with the value itself (your vision of the ideal). Its more like, and about as transient, as knocking on the wrong door in an apartment building. Your values will shine even then.

Let me see if I got this right...

With this lady there are a few things that has been of great value to me. Some things have been a real inspiration, and there are those moments that have mattered a great deal to me. I'm not going into any detail, but you know... there are good reasons why I like her the way I do, and this would make it a little extra disappointing if it were to get to that. The way I understand you now is that whatever happens this can not harm the value itself; the power of those values come from the ideals they represent.

In a similar sense if a relationship ends in a bad way it does not destroy the values you got from it. For example the value of romantic love cannot be destroyed because you've experienced it with the wrong person. The vision of that ideal will remain even though you've been "knocking on the wrong door".

Is this correct?

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I know that if she agrees to go out with me... well, i'll be thrilled of course and everything will be perfect sort of up until I meet her. Then i'll lend her my arm and walk to where we are going, and all the while i'll be thinking; "Well, i'm walking here with the most beautiful lady i've ever seen, she's agreed to go out with me and I can't think of anything to say".

Start with "small talk" and simple questions about concrete, current matters like:

  • Have you ever been here before?
  • Was it any problem finding this place?
  • This is my favorite restaurant. They have wonderful _____. What are you in the mood for?
  • How is your day going?

This should get her talking, and once she does, you are into the conversation wherever it may go.

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If you can't think of anything to SAY, then ASK. Take the focus off yourself and onto her. Her clothes, her house, her car, her sport,s her family, and most importantly her plans. Here you will discover her values in a more subtle way.

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If you can't think of anything to SAY, then ASK. Take the focus off yourself and onto her. Her clothes, her house, her car, her sport,s her family, and most importantly her plans. Here you will discover her values in a more subtle way.

This is really good and important advice. She may have a made a great impression on you already, but if you want to progress to a closer relationship, you need to know for your own sake that your assessment is correct. So, ask questions and learn about her.

Also, as a secondary consequence, a good woman will appreciate your interest in her, in that you care enough to find out what she thinks and values, and that her answers matter to you. You could say that explicitly to her, but asking questions about her makes it an action on your part -- a deed, not just words -- and makes it more valuable to her. Consequently, if she's interested in you, she will find it terrific that you want to know more about her.

Isn't it great when life can give you a win-win situation like that? :rolleyes:

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I don't think Dagny would be my type,

Blasphemer! :rolleyes:

I can completely identify with being tongue-tied, because I'm the same way. One issue I've noticed in myself (and which I think may apply to you) is that I'm so out of touch with dating that when there's someone who I am remotely interested in, in my mind I'm already imagining a relationship even though date1 hasn't even happened yet. This is actually something I struggle with in making goals generally - I get so caught up with where I want things to lead that the small steps get lost in the mix. What's more, it becomes difficult to enjoy those steps, because I'm too far ahead of myself and it's a downer to have to realize I haven't gone anywhere yet! The actual pursuit of the goal becomes a chore, and I feel like giving up. So I can go from elation at the possibilities to hopelessness in no time. This is the problem with having your "head in the clouds". It's like a sugar high that always leads to a crash.

Maybe that's not familiar at all, but some of what you've said about your feelings about this girl made me think that you're getting ahead of yourself, which could be getting in the way of taking the small steps. You seem quite emotionally invested in this, even though you don't really know all that much about her. It gives the impression that she's not real to you, that she's just a proxy for your ideal. I could be completely off, but I mention this because I've been there and it doesn't end well. If this does apply at all, then I would give you the advice I'd give the "old me" if I could hop in a time machine: knock yourself off balance, regain your perspective, even if it means taking a different girl on a date. This is the stage of your relationship for playful flirting, not a pledge of eternal devotion.

Again, maybe I'm way off, in which case feel free to say so. If not, consider it food for thought.

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I know that if she agrees to go out with me... well, i'll be thrilled of course and everything will be perfect sort of up until I meet her. Then i'll lend her my arm and walk to where we are going, and all the while i'll be thinking; "Well, i'm walking here with the most beautiful lady i've ever seen, she's agreed to go out with me and I can't think of anything to say".

Start with "small talk" and simple questions about concrete, current matters like:

  • Have you ever been here before?
  • Was it any problem finding this place?
  • This is my favorite restaurant. They have wonderful _____. What are you in the mood for?
  • How is your day going?

This should get her talking, and once she does, you are into the conversation wherever it may go.

I'll give it a shot, but you know both of us are pretty bad at "small talk". On the other hand, the conversation has to start somewhere... and it usually does.

A thought that just occured to me is also that silence doesent necessarily have to be awkward, unless you make it that way(but of course there must be meaningfull conversations). Maybe the best attitude is to just relax and not worry about it. I think I could even have a little fun with it. :rolleyes:

If you can't think of anything to SAY, then ASK. Take the focus off yourself and onto her. Her clothes, her house, her car, her sport,s her family, and most importantly her plans. Here you will discover her values in a more subtle way.
If you can't think of anything to SAY, then ASK. Take the focus off yourself and onto her. Her clothes, her house, her car, her sport,s her family, and most importantly her plans. Here you will discover her values in a more subtle way.

This is really good and important advice. She may have a made a great impression on you already, but if you want to progress to a closer relationship, you need to know for your own sake that your assessment is correct. So, ask questions and learn about her.

Also, as a secondary consequence, a good woman will appreciate your interest in her, in that you care enough to find out what she thinks and values, and that her answers matter to you. You could say that explicitly to her, but asking questions about her makes it an action on your part -- a deed, not just words -- and makes it more valuable to her. Consequently, if she's interested in you, she will find it terrific that you want to know more about her.

Isn't it great when life can give you a win-win situation like that? ;)

This actually reminds me of a guy I once had the chance to observe, who was really good with women(and not like a "player" or anything like that). What he did was to just have a very casual conversation, making "small talk"(although he was a rather quiet type, so he actually did not talk very much at all) and asking questions just to get to know the person a little better. Very simple, but as you say this is a very good aproach. But there was one thing that really set him apart from others. He would always respond with a concrete observation about the person he was talking to. For exaple a conversation could go like:

"So, what did you do during the weekend?"

"I just went out with my friends; dancing, having fun..."

"Oh, so you're a party-girl then?"

Or maybe if she answered that she was skydiving and base jumping he would make the obvious remark that she must be the adventurous type.

What i've found most people do is to just comment on the activity; "dancing sounds like fun", "isnt skydiving dangerous?". The conclusions drawn about the person are just overlooked; you just make a quick judgement and keep it somewhere in the back of your head.

This guy did not only show interest, he also communiacated; "based of what you told me, this is how I see you". Now imagine how that must be for a good woman with high self-esteem. If you just give a woman a compliment you might be saying that just to be nice. But if you show her, based on the facts she gives you, how fantastic she really is... that's worth a lot more.

Ah well, this is just a little something I intend to get better at, and it's so simple really.

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I don't think Dagny would be my type,

Blasphemer! :rolleyes:

I can completely identify with being tongue-tied, because I'm the same way. One issue I've noticed in myself (and which I think may apply to you) is that I'm so out of touch with dating that when there's someone who I am remotely interested in, in my mind I'm already imagining a relationship even though date1 hasn't even happened yet. This is actually something I struggle with in making goals generally - I get so caught up with where I want things to lead that the small steps get lost in the mix. What's more, it becomes difficult to enjoy those steps, because I'm too far ahead of myself and it's a downer to have to realize I haven't gone anywhere yet! The actual pursuit of the goal becomes a chore, and I feel like giving up. So I can go from elation at the possibilities to hopelessness in no time. This is the problem with having your "head in the clouds". It's like a sugar high that always leads to a crash.

Maybe that's not familiar at all, but some of what you've said about your feelings about this girl made me think that you're getting ahead of yourself, which could be getting in the way of taking the small steps. You seem quite emotionally invested in this, even though you don't really know all that much about her. It gives the impression that she's not real to you, that she's just a proxy for your ideal. I could be completely off, but I mention this because I've been there and it doesn't end well. If this does apply at all, then I would give you the advice I'd give the "old me" if I could hop in a time machine: knock yourself off balance, regain your perspective, even if it means taking a different girl on a date. This is the stage of your relationship for playful flirting, not a pledge of eternal devotion.

Again, maybe I'm way off, in which case feel free to say so. If not, consider it food for thought.

I don't know if it's a good thing but, I think I would like Dominique, and Kira... how come noone ever mentions Kira? ;)

I'm exactly the way you describe. In this case I havent even recieved an answer yet, but my mind is already a couple of dates ahead. That is until I read some of the posts here, so now i'm having doubts and don't no wether to feel hopefull or hopeless.

The impresion that she's not real to me is not entierly correct. My biggest problem right now is that I don't know how far I can trust my judgement. That's perhaps why i've given you the impression that I don't know her. I see it as a big puzzle where I have a lot of pieces in place, but there are some pieces missing that could change the picture. Some pieces I don't know if they are real or just in my head. But I want to make it clear that I do know a lot about her and that there are real, solid, facts to support my vision of her. I may have rushed into things too quickly, but i'm not chasing a ghost. Unfortunately though, because i've rushed myself into it the emotional investment is huge.

Anyway, i'm trying to be carefull not to say too much before I know her answer. If she answers "yes" then I think everything will be crystal clear. I'm really hoping that's going to be her answer, not just because it would be great going out with her for lunch but also because soooo many things would start making sense to me. On the other hand, if she answers "no" then i'll be clueless again...

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I don't know if it's a good thing but, I think I would like Dominique, and Kira... how come noone ever mentions Kira? ;)

Not good or bad, they're all great characters. ;) Dominique is not my type, though. Loved Kira (Especially as played by Alida Valli).

I'm exactly the way you describe. In this case I havent even recieved an answer yet, but my mind is already a couple of dates ahead. That is until I read some of the posts here, so now i'm having doubts and don't no wether to feel hopefull or hopeless.

I suspected. I don't really have a cure, or I wouldn't still be single! But you haven't failed until you've tried. :rolleyes:

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Let me see if I got this right...

With this lady there are a few things that has been of great value to me. Some things have been a real inspiration, and there are those moments that have mattered a great deal to me. I'm not going into any detail, but you know... there are good reasons why I like her the way I do, and this would make it a little extra disappointing if it were to get to that. The way I understand you now is that whatever happens this can not harm the value itself; the power of those values come from the ideals they represent.

In a similar sense if a relationship ends in a bad way it does not destroy the values you got from it. For example the value of romantic love cannot be destroyed because you've experienced it with the wrong person. The vision of that ideal will remain even though you've been "knocking on the wrong door".

Is this correct?

Yes, it sounds right. Sorry I didn't answer sooner, I didn't notice that it was a question the first time through.

I just want to add, that I think the rest of the advice you are getting is sound, and I am getting a clearer vision of what it is that you see in this girl. There are some good points about idealizing her, but you seem to be on the right track with identifying concretes.

And for what its worth she sounds great and worth your time.

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And for what its worth she sounds great and worth your time.

Best one I have ever met.

Apparently though she barely found it worth even responding, let alone spending a little time with me.

I must be more clueless than I thought...

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Apparently though she barely found it worth even responding, let alone spending a little time with me.

I must be more clueless than I thought...

So did she say no or just not respond yet? I mean, sometimes girls wait to respond, just so they don't seem too excited. If she did say no, I'm sorry man. Sometimes it seems like all the signals are there, and then...nothing. :rolleyes:

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Apparently though she barely found it worth even responding, let alone spending a little time with me.

I must be more clueless than I thought...

So did she say no or just not respond yet? I mean, sometimes girls wait to respond, just so they don't seem too excited. If she did say no, I'm sorry man. Sometimes it seems like all the signals are there, and then...nothing. :rolleyes:

I was counting on her to wait a little bit with her response, but then I thought her response was starting to get a little too late and... well, only way to know is to ask so I sent her a message at work(where I can be sure she recieves them). She told me she had been too busy too respond and that she did not want to hurt my feelings but she could not do it, "you know lunch and all the fun".

What can I say? I told her a little half jokingly that "Oh, you just broke my heart, by i'll survive"(although true the point was "who cares?"), and "not much I can do if you don't like lunch and having fun(unless you like bad dinner).

It may sound a little unfriendlier than it actually was, but anyway... Game over. I'd better leave it at that and start getting my head fixed...

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I suspected. I don't really have a cure, or I wouldn't still be single! But you haven't failed until you've tried. :rolleyes:

Now I have thought about this for a little while. I think part of it might just be a vivid imagination. I know I can easily see things far up ahead, and then I start picturing them and planning how I will make things into that image. This may not actually be such a bad thing, if used properly. A problem that arises however is that I make it mean something. In the beginning is just a potential value; it's not something I have and it's not real, but it could be. And if I could make it happen it would just be so great, because then i'll have this and that and all those other things... In my mind I already have them, but then reality comes like a bucket of ice cold water poured over my head. I mean, i'm not there yet, but I understand so clearly what it would mean, so how can I enjoy the process of getting there?

In everyday life I deal with this a certain way. In school every day consists of doing one or two specific tasks, and to get the highest grade they must be completed within a limited time frame. Often the tasks are a bit stupid and the time given is rarely enough to do something well. That's something I hate, but it's just something that has to be done. Then sometimes there are more meaningfull tasks. Meaningfull in this case means that they are fun, challenging and good practice/learning for the future. I have noticed that when I deal with such tasks during the day, epsecially when i've had the chance to perform them my way, I can go home feeling quite good about myself.

I think all of those elements are important. Whatever I do I must enjoy it right now. I mean, I can't do things I hate and just hope it will get better in the future. It's like doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results. Then it's also important to have a little challenge and to get some sort of reward for doing these things. For example, when I do something good and creative I get the reward of admiring what I have done and dealing with the challenges. Lastly, it must be connected to the big picture. Even if it's just a tiny little step it needs to be relevant for my future goals and dreams. If I don't have that it's like playing World of Warcraft all day long(not that I have ever played it but...). I imagine it can be fun and the system of the game is based on different challenges and rewards, but if you devote your life to it it's not exactly going to lead to happiness(because a game will not take your life forward).

So anyway, this is how I try to deal with life in general, and I think this is how it should be(minus the stupid booring things I need to do). This is also something I think could be applied to social situations. Why not break it down to simple, fun and a little challening tasks that could actually lead somewhere. I don't have that many concrete things in mind but I guess it could be anything from finding out what a girls favourite food is to flirting outrageously. The point is to just find a way to deal with the concrete things right in front of you.

A problem with love and romance though is that it just means so much. I don't know, I guess it's just that being alone has started to wear on me, maybe i'm just weak but who wants to fight alone and not have anyone to share the glory of victory with? The irony here is that once the light of hope is lit, once you can really see the potential, that's sort of when you loose. Then it just starts to mean too much, and when it does you are going to mess things up - drop the ball, and it's over.

Atleast I think I have identified the problem and started to see a sollution, but... while I have an idea of what to do, I don't know how I can get myself to want to do it. I just can't see myself enjoying for example picking up and dating a lot of different women. I'm not interested in, say, 99,9% of the women out there. And, understanding so well what they are not... finding the right one just seems like a daunting task instead of something fun and exciting. It's a bit stupid really because I know that if I just took the initial steps and got to enjoy it i'd get good at it in no time.

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At least I think I have identified the problem and started to see a sollution, but... while I have an idea of what to do, I don't know how I can get myself to want to do it. I just can't see myself enjoying for example picking up and dating a lot of different women. I'm not interested in, say, 99,9% of the women out there. And, understanding so well what they are not... finding the right one just seems like a daunting task instead of something fun and exciting. It's a bit stupid really because I know that if I just took the initial steps and got to enjoy it i'd get good at it in no time.

Your attitude and approach seem right on target to me.

You don't have to pick up and date a lot of women, however. Just introspect about the kind of woman you like and why. Then think about where you are likely to find someone like that: at work, taking a class at an adult school, at the supermarket or laundromat, at an Objectivist conference, community club, or campus club, on THE FORUM, or ...? Then BE THERE. If you find a woman who interests, introduce yourself and see where it goes.

In my experience, a man who makes finding a good romantic relationship a priority, almost always succeeds.

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So anyway, this is how I try to deal with life in general, and I think this is how it should be(minus the stupid booring things I need to do). This is also something I think could be applied to social situations. Why not break it down to simple, fun and a little challening tasks that could actually lead somewhere. I don't have that many concrete things in mind but I guess it could be anything from finding out what a girls favourite food is to flirting outrageously. The point is to just find a way to deal with the concrete things right in front of you.

A problem with love and romance though is that it just means so much. I don't know, I guess it's just that being alone has started to wear on me, maybe i'm just weak but who wants to fight alone and not have anyone to share the glory of victory with? The irony here is that once the light of hope is lit, once you can really see the potential, that's sort of when you loose. Then it just starts to mean too much, and when it does you are going to mess things up - drop the ball, and it's over.

Atleast I think I have identified the problem and started to see a sollution, but... while I have an idea of what to do, I don't know how I can get myself to want to do it. I just can't see myself enjoying for example picking up and dating a lot of different women. I'm not interested in, say, 99,9% of the women out there. And, understanding so well what they are not... finding the right one just seems like a daunting task instead of something fun and exciting. It's a bit stupid really because I know that if I just took the initial steps and got to enjoy it i'd get good at it in no time.

Two things. First of all, do you see how your approach changed from the first paragraph I quoted to the last? In the first, you talk about looking at reality and real opportunities to enjoy time with other people. However then your focus drifts to how reality hasn't met your expectations. By the end, you feel the situation is hopeless, not based on any real evidence, but a statistic you grabbed out of nowhere. If you begin by thinking that the vast majority of women aren't worth your time, then of course you're not going to feel motivated.

Secondly, you say "once the light of hope is lit, you can really see the potential, that's sort of when you lose." Why do you lose? Isn't this a sign that what you see is not really potential, but a fantasy that is easily shot down by reality? You're looking from the wrong end of the telescope (so to speak). "Potential" is measured by looking at reality, not fantasy.

I have exactly this problem myself, so I am not trying to condescend. The problem is a thinking pattern that has been automatized for years, and that is very very difficult to break free from. Probably the fantasies served some purpose at some point. I know that for me, they helped me from becoming too depressed when I went through a very lonely time as a kid. I turned inward when others didn't understand me. But now that the fantasy isn't necessary anymore, it's become a liability. It sabotages any attempt at forming relationships with people, because the fantasy gets in the way of enjoying what's real.

Even if you don't have any definite ideas yet, I think you're on the right track. And to be clear, I'm not saying that fantasy is bad, as long as it helps you to deal with reality. For example, you might fantasize about a date and use the ideas in it to make it real. The problem is when the fantasy becomes an escape; then reality is just the "bucket of ice cold water".

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At least I think I have identified the problem and started to see a sollution, but... while I have an idea of what to do, I don't know how I can get myself to want to do it. I just can't see myself enjoying for example picking up and dating a lot of different women. I'm not interested in, say, 99,9% of the women out there. And, understanding so well what they are not... finding the right one just seems like a daunting task instead of something fun and exciting. It's a bit stupid really because I know that if I just took the initial steps and got to enjoy it i'd get good at it in no time.

Your attitude and approach seem right on target to me.

You don't have to pick up and date a lot of women, however. Just introspect about the kind of woman you like and why. Then think about where you are likely to find someone like that: at work, taking a class at an adult school, at the supermarket or laundromat, at an Objectivist conference, community club, or campus club, on THE FORUM, or ...? Then BE THERE. If you find a woman who interests, introduce yourself and see where it goes.

In my experience, a man who makes finding a good romantic relationship a priority, almost always succeeds.

I have thought about this for a while and I think I have a pretty good idea alteast about the fundamentals of the kind of woman i'm looking for. Beyond that though it gets a little tricky. I have often found that an idea can seem very good in my head but then in reality it's a bit different. But I suppose knowing the fundamentals is good, and maybe the rest is just something i'll have to discover.

I think one reason why i've had so little sucess in this area is that I have very rarely been in situations where i've even had the opportunit of meeting women. When most people where out partying and getting drunk I prefered reading books and playing with the computer. I have never really been a member of any social group and the only clubs i've joined are car clubs. I'm just saying, your advice makes perfect sense - if you're going to meet somone you better start creating oppurtunities.

So anyway, to begin with i've found two things that i'm going to do. The first thing is to learn to dance. It's an activity that's guaranteed to attract women, it could be fun and it's most certainly a usefull skill. The other thing is to look for good art galleries and exibits. It's going to be more difficult, but it could be a way of picking out people who share atleast some fundamental values(and if not I can always enjoy good art). Other than that I guess I have to go out more often too. :)

Two things. First of all, do you see how your approach changed from the first paragraph I quoted to the last? In the first, you talk about looking at reality and real opportunities to enjoy time with other people. However then your focus drifts to how reality hasn't met your expectations. By the end, you feel the situation is hopeless, not based on any real evidence, but a statistic you grabbed out of nowhere. If you begin by thinking that the vast majority of women aren't worth your time, then of course you're not going to feel motivated.

Secondly, you say "once the light of hope is lit, you can really see the potential, that's sort of when you lose." Why do you lose? Isn't this a sign that what you see is not really potential, but a fantasy that is easily shot down by reality? You're looking from the wrong end of the telescope (so to speak). "Potential" is measured by looking at reality, not fantasy.

I have exactly this problem myself, so I am not trying to condescend. The problem is a thinking pattern that has been automatized for years, and that is very very difficult to break free from. Probably the fantasies served some purpose at some point. I know that for me, they helped me from becoming too depressed when I went through a very lonely time as a kid. I turned inward when others didn't understand me. But now that the fantasy isn't necessary anymore, it's become a liability. It sabotages any attempt at forming relationships with people, because the fantasy gets in the way of enjoying what's real.

Even if you don't have any definite ideas yet, I think you're on the right track. And to be clear, I'm not saying that fantasy is bad, as long as it helps you to deal with reality. For example, you might fantasize about a date and use the ideas in it to make it real. The problem is when the fantasy becomes an escape; then reality is just the "bucket of ice cold water".

Don't worry, I don't find you condescending at all. :)

You are right about my focus drifting towards hopelessness. I did not notice until you pointed it out, but you are right. It happens a lot when I think about these things and I have to constantly "re-frame" my thoughts to see it from a better perspective. However, while the percentage was just made up I do know that the women that interest me are rare and hard to find. That much I can say from experience. But there are two ways I can aproach this. On way is to give in and just find it oh so hopeless. Another way is to do everything I can to improve the chances, knowing that in the end it will have been worth the effort and also knowing that for every "wrong one" I find i'm just geting a little closer to the "right one". Looking at it that way makes it a little more fun too.

Regarding potential I think a problem could be just running ahead of events. You know, everything is going great and you realize this could really be something. What's happening and the potential of that is real, but... the problem comes when the mind just skips a few steps of the process. Maybe that's what you would call a fantasy?

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I have thought about this for a while and I think I have a pretty good idea alteast about the fundamentals of the kind of woman i'm looking for. Beyond that though it gets a little tricky. I have often found that an idea can seem very good in my head but then in reality it's a bit different. But I suppose knowing the fundamentals is good, and maybe the rest is just something i'll have to discover.

That's what dating is all about: reality-checking your romantic ideas and discovering who is right for you.

I think one reason why i've had so little sucess in this area is that I have very rarely been in situations where i've even had the opportunit of meeting women. When most people where out partying and getting drunk I prefered reading books and playing with the computer.

I'll bet the woman of your dreams wasn't out partying and getting drunk either.

I have never really been a member of any social group and the only clubs i've joined are car clubs. I'm just saying, your advice makes perfect sense - if you're going to meet somone you better start creating oppurtunities.

So anyway, to begin with i've found two things that i'm going to do. The first thing is to learn to dance. It's an activity that's guaranteed to attract women, it could be fun and it's most certainly a usefull skill.

Great idea! If your dance classes are anything like the ones I've been going to, the women generally outnumber the men.

The other thing is to look for good art galleries and exibits. It's going to be more difficult, but it could be a way of picking out people who share atleast some fundamental values(and if not I can always enjoy good art). Other than that I guess I have to go out more often too. :)

Observe how often art is involved in dating activities like attending movies, plays, and concerts. It is one of the best ways to check out each other's sense of life.

However, while the percentage was just made up I do know that the women that interest me are rare and hard to find. That much I can say from experience. But there are two ways I can aproach this. On way is to give in and just find it oh so hopeless. Another way is to do everything I can to improve the chances, knowing that in the end it will have been worth the effort and also knowing that for every "wrong one" I find i'm just geting a little closer to the "right one". Looking at it that way makes it a little more fun too.

Absolutely! Most of the women you go out with will not be right for you, but so what? All you need is one that is.

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