PhilO

Objectivists who would like to immigrate to America

19 posts in this topic

I'm starting this thread in response to a current thread on immigration. I am very pro-immigration and am of the view that the U.S. government has absolutely no right to restrict entry into America for any rights-respecting individual. There is far too much anti-"foreigner" nonsense in America today, even among those who ought to know better, so my intention is have this thread be a place where Objectivists who wish to immigrate to America can describe the problems they've had with that process. This may be practically helpful for others in the same situation, which is good, but my primary goal is to demonstrate the complete stupidity of modern American immigration laws, by individuals that no rational person could possibly want excluded from the country. Those unfamiliar with the situation may be surprised at the number of such individuals, and the ridiculous and completely unnecessary time-and-money wasting difficulties that they've had.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's just stick to the topic of Objectivists would have or would like to immigrate. There are other threads for discussions of immigration policies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
... describe the problems they've had with that process.
I can try to give some info (as an immigrant myself, and now a citizen), but I'll link to this post by someone I know. If people have follow-up questions about the factual parts of U.S. law, I might be able to answer from my own knowledge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Let's just stick to the topic of Objectivists would have or would like to immigrate. There are other threads for discussions of immigration policies.

I moved the posts about immigration policy to this thread as piz suggested.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm starting this thread in response to a current thread on immigration. I am very pro-immigration and am of the view that the U.S. government has absolutely no right to restrict entry into America for any rights-respecting individual. There is far too much anti-"foreigner" nonsense in America today, even among those who ought to know better, so my intention is have this thread be a place where Objectivists who wish to immigrate to America can describe the problems they've had with that process. This may be practically helpful for others in the same situation, which is good, but my primary goal is to demonstrate the complete stupidity of modern American immigration laws, by individuals that no rational person could possibly want excluded from the country. Those unfamiliar with the situation may be surprised at the number of such individuals, and the ridiculous and completely unnecessary time-and-money wasting difficulties that they've had.

I must thank you very much for your unwaveringly consistent position on this matter over the years, Phil.

There is much I could share on this thread, but I'm not sure I want to sound like a victim -- I much prefer being a bare-knuckled fighter than a gloved diplomat. :huh: Besides, it might mean sharing huge chunks of my personal life which I'm not temperamentally suited to doing. I'll try to say a little though as soon as I can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
... describe the problems they've had with that process.
I can try to give some info (as an immigrant myself, and now a citizen), but I'll link to this post by someone I know. If people have follow-up questions about the factual parts of U.S. law, I might be able to answer from my own knowledge.

Whoah... :huh: ...that must have been an incredibly frustrating and disheartening ordeal, and it is really disappointing to learn this is how it is for many promising immigrants. :(

I can understand why so many people choose to live in Canada over the US (go to the YYZ airport in Toronto, and quite often white is the minority!). If my significant other and I get married, I will probably move to Canada rather than go through the frustration of trying to immigrate her over legally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If my significant other and I get married, I will probably move to Canada rather than go through the frustration of trying to immigrate her over legally.
If you're a U.S. citizen, then there'd be little reason to do so. Immigration for a foreign spouse is one of the easiest. (An exception would be if the foreign spouse already has some type of legal obligation to stay away from the U.S. ... e.g. a doctor who came on a "J-1" visa, promising to return to their home country).

Today, the biggest hurdles to white-collar ($50K per annum and up) "immigration" are:

  • the requirement that an employer be the primary initiator of work-permits, with the government having a say in who is qualified; and
  • the limit on the number of work-permits issued each year
  • spouses who are not in the same skill category, being banned from working
  • country quotas on Green-cards

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Let's just stick to the topic of Objectivists would have or would like to immigrate. There are other threads for discussions of immigration policies.

By focusing on the problems that Objectivists have had, there is no way to avoid discussing the immigration policies that caused those problems. Such a focus helps to concretize, for Americans, the sort of evil nonsense that personally affects the lives of good people who ought to be able freely immigrate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I must thank you very much for your unwaveringly consistent position on this matter over the years, Phil.

You're welcome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, at this point in time, it is near impossible for me to move permanently to the United States.

The ways that are accessible to an Australian are as follows

1) Lottery, but thats a joke, it gets booked up almost instantly after being released and even then has low odds.

2) Marriage visa, but I don't see that happening in the next 10 years for me.

3) Work visa, not that accessible to me because I am not a famous name in my industry, and because I am not college educated, I would consider myself to be a high risk employee to hire from an employers perspective. It is no problem for me to get a job in Australia with its very free employment laws, but to get one overseas which requires an investment of money and time by an employer before I have proven my ability to them is pretty much impossible.

4) Investment visa, that requires an investment of $500k to $1million in US companies to enter, and only if the investment meets their criteria, but I have heard many stories of corruption in the process in which the officials processing it, want investment in their family businesses. It is not a viable route.

As a result, I keep my eye out for any opening that will allow me to enter the US legally. (I still stand by my principle of not illegally immigrating, because of my huge respect for the rule of law and I don't want to undermine it).

I am also heavily active in trying to push for the unjust laws to be repealed.

Until then, if I can't goto the United States, I can bring the United States to me, by being an advocate of freedom, self interest, and reason here in Australia. :huh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am also heavily active in trying to push for the unjust laws to be repealed. Until then, if I can't goto the United States, I can bring the United States to me, by being an advocate of freedom, self interest, and reason here in Australia. :huh:

Did you immigrate to Australia or start there? How do the laws there compare to immigration laws in the US?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As a result, I keep my eye out for any opening that will allow me to enter the US legally. (I still stand by my principle of not illegally immigrating, because of my huge respect for the rule of law and I don't want to undermine it).

My question may be the subject for another thread and it is a general question addressed to all Forum members.

At what point in time does the respect for the rule of law become self-sacrificial when a law, such as the United States' immigration policies, is clearly unjust?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As a result, I keep my eye out for any opening that will allow me to enter the US legally. (I still stand by my principle of not illegally immigrating, because of my huge respect for the rule of law and I don't want to undermine it).

My question may be the subject for another thread and it is a general question addressed to all Forum members.

At what point in time does the respect for the rule of law become self-sacrificial when a law, such as the United States' immigration policies, is clearly unjust?

I think it becomes self-sacrificial the moment it becomes unjust; the moment compliance with the law involves the violation of rights. That means that our current laws require a great deal of self-sacrifice, both for American citizens and would-be immigrants.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Those unfamiliar with the situation may be surprised at the number of such individuals, and the ridiculous and completely unnecessary time-and-money wasting difficulties that they've had.

I am currently an American citizen. The problems I have experienced are in making the most of being an American. I have had to prove I could pay a certain wage to EB-2 employees and obtain labour certification from the Department of Labor. I offered to justify all aspects of my filed applications during an in-person meeting but was told there were no questions and my application looked straightforward. My applications were rejected thereafter because my workers were deemed seasonal or temporary workers by a person my file was passed on to, someone who only looked at the file cursorily. I explained in a subsequent meeting, using the DOL's own labour certification, that the nature of the work would take these workers out of America for minimum periods of 1 year. I was told my EB-2 applications should really be for EB-3s, and it was strongly suggested that I lower the wage the EB-3s should be paid and to "normalize their payscale" or pay them in the currency of the nations they were physically in. I did not agree with this suggestion, and did not agree with 3 third-party government bodies involved in the approval of how I run my own business. It is also not the business of two of three of those government bodies whether my employees are returning home for a vacation, playing truant at the SEG Electronics Market in Shenzhen or on the job. I reapplied and have been able to get EB-2s issued but have encounter the same issues for each application due to the nature of my business which causes delays.

I have problems emigrating America should I wish to do so. I will be subject to high exit taxes (I am a "Covered Expatriate" under the HEART Act) should I choose to renounce my American citizenship since my dual citizenships do not grant me exemption under the conditions of the HEART Act.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Did you immigrate to Australia or start there? How do the laws there compare to immigration laws in the US?

I was born here. The Australian immigration laws from my understanding, operate on a points based system. Certain skills or education add or remove points and if you got over a certain amount of points, you can come here.

We got heavy immigration to here, but due to a policy of assimilation instead of multiculturalism, seem to be integrating most immigrants well into our society.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Did you immigrate to Australia or start there? How do the laws there compare to immigration laws in the US?

I was born here. The Australian immigration laws from my understanding, operate on a points based system. Certain skills or education add or remove points and if you got over a certain amount of points, you can come here.

We got heavy immigration to here, but due to a policy of assimilation instead of multiculturalism, seem to be integrating most immigrants well into our society.

Why do you want to leave?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Did you immigrate to Australia or start there? How do the laws there compare to immigration laws in the US?

I was born here. The Australian immigration laws from my understanding, operate on a points based system. Certain skills or education add or remove points and if you got over a certain amount of points, you can come here.

We got heavy immigration to here, but due to a policy of assimilation instead of multiculturalism, seem to be integrating most immigrants well into our society.

Why do you want to leave?

One thing about Australian politics is that it is always unstable, change always happens very fast here.

The other aspect is that right now, we got the ultimate second hander elected, Kevin Rudd who has no integrity.

He makes a giant announcement every 3 to 4 days to try to get himself in the news, but has no substance to him.

I can handle leaders with bad policies who have integrity to their word, because if you can make them back down, due to public outrage or convincing them, then you know they will follow through when they say they will back down.

But leaders who don't have integrity, who will just say whatever they think will make them sound good, with no actions to follow it up, well those leaders, what can you say to them? How can you defend yourself against such a leader? Those are the ones who scare me.

Under such a government, there is no battle of wills that I can win if the government goes after my business. Instead it is like fighting jelly that absorbs your energy(which weakens you due to you having expended that energy) but just bounces back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One thing about Australian politics is that it is always unstable, change always happens very fast here.

The other aspect is that right now, we got the ultimate second hander elected, Kevin Rudd who has no integrity.

As a recent arrival in Australia, I can see what Michael is talking about. The Aussie sense of life is positive, I find, but without an explicit political philosophy on which to base their government, it's like a house of cards. Furthermore when I explain certain aspects of the American system to people who are curious, they really are confounded. The notion of the electoral college is odd to Australians, for example. Many I've talked to have this idea it's "anti-democratic" for an elected leader NOT to be selected directly by the people.

All that said, I find Australia an extremely hospitable country and have no regrets about moving here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites