476 Rome, 2008 Washington D.C.

[Capitalism Forever 0]

What is your point? Do you not agree that a rights-respecting Republic would be the ideal form of government?

I definitely think so. [...] I believe in just governments. Do you know where I can find one?

ruveyn

I'm still not sure what you are trying to convince us of. We all do believe in just governments, we all are aware that today's governments fall far short of that ideal, and we also know that the original United States had some of its own flaws. Are you trying to say that all future governments will also necessarily be flawed, because man is inherently bad?

[ruveyn ben yosef 0]

What is your point? Do you not agree that a rights-respecting Republic would be the ideal form of government?

I definitely think so. [...] I believe in just governments. Do you know where I can find one?

ruveyn

I'm still not sure what you are trying to convince us of. We all do believe in just governments, we all are aware that today's governments fall far short of that ideal, and we also know that the original United States had some of its own flaws. Are you trying to say that all future governments will also necessarily be flawed, because man is inherently bad?

I would not condemn the entire human race. Unfortunately the worst sort of people are just the kind that gravitate into government. You know the type- control freaks who have no sense of themselves unless the ride the backs of others like a jockey rides a horse. The worst kind are the control freaks that seek to control "for the good of others". Think of it as Altruism from Hell.

There are all sorts of people. Self actualizing folk go into fields of endeavor where they can show their smarts and virtuous without abusing other people. Insecure folks need love and approval and some will get it, even at gun point.

ruveyn

[JohnRgt 0]

I definitely think so. Too bad we never had one. Not even to start with. The first thing that happened in 1794 was George Washing, our President led a gang 13,000 Federales into Pennsylvania to compel the local farmers to cough up a quarter a barrel tax on the whiskey they produced.

You consistently throw out the baby with the bathwater which, at best, points to serious context issues in your thinking.

Even pre-Revolution, those fortunate enough to be living in the American colonies were the freest, most affluent people on the planet, probably in history until that point. (They got there through Crown neglect.)

Post Revolution, things got even better -- a lot better.

We don't need perfection to either make noteworthy longterm progress or to live fulfilling lives. This is a ridiculous standard that I'm shocked to see you using.

[ruveyn ben yosef 0]

You consistently throw out the baby with the bathwater which, at best, points to serious context issues in your thinking.

The C-word. Context. The shoe has dropped.

No. I just look at facts. I have a thing about facts. It is all part of my Aspergarian literal mindedness.

I am like the Little Boy who stated a fact to the Emperor. The emp was bare a**ed. The Little Boy didn't think too much of Context either.

ruveyn

[PhilO 0]

You can't continually restate the entire applicable set of facts and reasoning that bear on the interpretation of a particular fact - nothing would ever get said or done and acquiring knowledge would actually be impossible in the first place. But all of that is *context*. Rejecting the entire idea of context is to reject knowledge and reasoning - in fact.

Let's say that somebody saw a 5 second video of a cop shooting a man (or the inverse: a man shooting a cop.) *Just* from that alone, it would not be possible to arrive a conclusion of "just action" or not without additional context - additional facts and additional reasoning to go with those facts. If it turned out that the man shot by the cop was an escaping mass murderer, it was justified. If it turned out that a man shooting a cop was doing so because the cop was acting under orders to shoot Jews, then he also was justified. But note the context: you need additional facts about the nature of the men and their motivations, and you also need an entire theory of ethics (perhaps held only implicitly when it should be explicit) to judge "justified" vs. "unjustified". And people with different ethical systems will arrive at different, opposing conclusions.

Or to take a very different example: a man who's been with his wife for years could utter one word about a situation which results in them both having a good laugh. Outside of a context of knowledge shared by them, perhaps only them, no outside observer could possibly know what's funny.

Dump context and you dump all knowledge.

[JohnRgt 0]

You consistently throw out the baby with the bathwater which, at best, points to serious context issues in your thinking.

The C-word. Context. The shoe has dropped.

No. I just look at facts. I have a thing about facts. It is all part of my Aspergarian literal mindedness.

I am like the Little Boy who stated a fact to the Emperor. The emp was bare a**ed. The Little Boy didn't think too much of Context either.

ruveyn

Every truth exists in a context. There's no such thing as severing a truth from its context.

[ruveyn ben yosef 0]

Every truth exists in a context. There's no such thing as severing a truth from its context.

I do it daily. The more one does it, the easier it gets.

ruveyn

[Capitalism Forever 0]

Every truth exists in a context. There's no such thing as severing a truth from its context.

I do it daily. The more one does it, the easier it gets.

ruveyn

You just said you believed in just governments. Wouldn't justice require taking into account the context in which a man acted? If you shoot a man, it can be out of self-defense or out of malice, depending on the context. Wouldn't you want the government to take your context into account?

[JohnRgt 0]

I do it daily. The more one does it, the easier it gets.

That's true of all kinds of silly, fallacious, dangerous and even criminal actions.

So what?

(BTW: You just introspected.)

[Betsy Speicher 0]

I have split off some recent posts in this thread to create a new topic title "Introspecting" here.

[Eknath Ende 0]

This is a very interesting and inspiring post because it touches fundamentals necessary to stop America’s slide, as against talks about trivial issues that are many times seen on freedom-leaning forums. I don’t know how I missed this one, because I do visit forums frequently to read. But there is a negative tone in the article which I wish to change to hope – despite living in India’s hell I have not given up on America as of yet as the engine of civilization. Previously I have made some “fast posts” on various forums, but mainly with the intention of knowing American mind – why America is sliding unstoppably, and why no one is able to even slow down the pace. Obama’s re-election was such a jolt that several even talked of migration to other countries (like CF has declared it as the demise).

Earlier when I talked about collapse of civilization I got thoroughly pasted. People on some Objectivist sites also ganged up against me when I talked about Aristotle’s greatness and contribution to civilization, like starting from metaphysics (apart from Libertarians calling it as “Randroid nonsense”). Other points about which I took beating were: Whether America is a democracy or a republic, the banality of Jefferson’s “All men were created equal” etc. All of it contributed as experience / knowledge to my writing. Now I have completed this book – Is Democracy the Nemesis also of the Anglo-Saxons? It covers in detail all the fundamental issues (amongst many others) touched by CF and the replies to his OP like the argument between John Rgt and Yosef. I had like to discuss it one part after another serially. I will make these posts and interested readers can give their views. I do believe that the book will help in stopping the slide America is on, and in a few posts the readers will come to know whether they agree or it is just my fancy – and based on their response / replies I too will know when to stop posting.

PS: Please note that other than good books there is no way of handling such a huge topic like stopping America’s slide. That it will happen “in a few words” (as I was advised to do on a forum) is out of question – its too very big a topic. So the posts will be a bit large, but perhaps OK for the essay section.

[Capitalism Forever 0]

But there is a negative tone in the article which I wish to change to hope – despite living in India’s hell I have not given up on America as of yet as the engine of civilization.

For the record, I did not mean to imply giving up on that when I wrote the article, and I do not think there is a reason to give up on it now.

[ruveyn ben yosef 0]

Every truth exists in a context. There's no such thing as severing a truth from its context.

Whose context? Everyone interprets what he experiences in terms of his own experiences. We all weight facts differently. Now what makes one set of weights. correct and another set of weights wrong. Do you have a reliable algorithm for context generation. If so, patent it. You may may a lot of money from it. Context is at best a fusion of fact with view-point which always has subjective baggage with it.

Ruveyn

[ruveyn ben yosef 0]

Which reminds me to ask the pertinent or impertinent question: If we had such a Wonderful Republic for starters why did the following happen in the fullness of time:

1. The American Civil war which killed 620,000 people and produced 1.5 million injured and maimed. That comes to over 6 percent of the population at the time of the war.

2. Why did our Wonderful Republic devolve into the neo-fascist abomination that is has become. How can anything So Wonderful devolve so quickly and thoroughly. And it is not recent either. Lincoln's administration had some of the elements. He was throwing people into jail without any habeas corpus protection. We had government control of industry by 1890. That was 123 years ago.

ruveyn

[Eknath Ende 0]

Wonderful Republic

It never was Atlantis, and never will be even with O’ism, because difference of opinion, individual intentions, opinion of mobs etc will have their influence everywhere. But we keep on striving for Atlantis, like in engineering we keep approximating nearer and nearer to reality. There were too many contradictions, lacks etc since the beginning of America – you have pointed out 1 or 2, but in fact imperfections start right with Locke, like his consent of governed, because today consent of governed is not merely Obama, but Obama re-elected! Some of the worst concepts then were “All men were created equal”, Aristotle too preaches inequality (like Plato ) …… etc. Demo-Party platform of 1960 showed to what extent the idea of men’s equality can be misused for evil purposes. Now there are many million voters who self-righteously say “We both are equal you bloody xyz, arrange champagne for us if you own so much!” What saved the Founding Fathers is the Aristotelian sense of life, continuing since renaissance, the British being the most Aristotelian, therefore being the most powerful, etc. One more is about racism – people will be astonished by my analysis of it (if it ever comes out) – how much the Anglo Saxons have given to the world, and what they got in return – in fact, the emancipated people taking over and destroying their countries is the thesis of my book!

You can’t blame the Founding Fathers – their achievement is the greatest when looked at from what they inherited!

Rectification was the work of future generations; and here too America has done tremendous work, but not in the field of intellectuality. In this field unfortunately, what many of them have inherited is only the drawbacks and weak-points coupled with tremendous arrogance about the superiority of the American system – to such a level that it forbids self analysis. Suddenly I discovered this recently on the Tea Party Forum which I converted to the sub-article Conundrum of Angry White Men and Foreigner as Savior of America – the wrong fundamentals in their minds almost forbid them from taking the correct direction to rectify .I have seen O’ists deride Europe’s monarchies and colonialism to no end, without being concerned of the question “What is America today”? Only now, after Obama-2012 they have admitted that something is wrong with America too – but that does not translate into taking correct path. GOP has already declared its wrong path: “We can’t come off as a bunch of angry whites” – it means competing with the Dems to woo blacks and Hispanics, means inducting their irrational ways of life into its agenda, further sliding, and no other meaning.

Therefore it is futile to keep discussing small points in bits and pieces, the slide will go on till collapse. So I thought of writing a book in which to study all these drawbacks, lacunae, weak-points, and to give a solution based on today’s knowledge. Amongst many others, one point I have proved is almost unbelievable to most people – despite freedom of speech etc, YOU CANNOT PREACH ALTRUISM / CHARITY / DOLES VIA GOVERNMENT – but I have proved it. There is also a solution what better men should do to overcome today’s unstoppably deteriorating situation.

For the first 30 years of my life (not less but 30) I was under strict Hindu upbringing, turned away from this false world of illusion around us in such a manner that no recovery should have been possible except almost a miracle (Ayn Rand and my perseverance). The way I understand evil (and how to overcome it), I don’t think an overwhelming number of Americans will – they live in too much of a benevolent world of richness, too far away from evil as of the moment. When they start understanding it will already be too late.

So my passion to contribute to save America -- but here too bad-luck may continue pursuing me, my time being limited – nobody throws a bone at a Hindu slum-dog! For example, I am trying to put my entire book on this site, but nobody may even read it – I have already concluded that I will not get even a single comment. Coming days will make it clear. One can keep trying, but has to accept what comes one’s way.

[PhilO 0]

"I have seen O’ists deride Europe’s monarchies and colonialism to no end, without being concerned of the question “What is America today”? Only now, after Obama-2012 they have admitted that something is wrong with America too – but that does not translate into taking correct path."

I don't know who you're talking about, but the first Objectivist, Ayn Rand, wrote with extreme clarity and foresight about what's wrong with America - a little novel you might have heard about, Atlas Shrugged, published 56 years ago.

In any case, if you want to publish a book, there's never been an easier, faster, or cheaper time in all of human history than right now:

https://kdp.amazon.com/self-publishing/signin

http://www.lulu.com/

etc. etc.

Whether it will be read, or will be worth reading, will be up to you.