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Lucid dreaming


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#1 rtg24

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 06:59 AM

I have just come across this Tim Ferriss post on lucid dreaming.

I would be very interested in the thoughts of more knowledgeable members about this. How does it work? Does it work? Do you need drugs? What are the implications in terms of what one can learn during sleep? Who wrote on this? Where can one find the studies?

#2 RayK

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 12:37 PM

The link came up, but there was nothing ther except a blank page.

There has been shown to be nothing to one's dream except that which they thought about or were aware of during their waking hours. In other words your subconscious deals with that which you thought or saw during your waking hours which can sometimes seem a mess or integrated, either way no worrrys. We have dreams during the REM cycle of our sleep which comes at the end of a full sleep cycle, on avergae this is the last 30 minutes of a 90 minute sleep cycle.

#3 rtg24

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 01:03 PM

http://www.fourhourw...to-lucid-dream/

The value in this seems consequent. One of my friends used it to practice taking apart and putting together rifles blindfolded. Another to learn lists of stuff. Tim Ferriss himself says he used it to practice wrestling.

#4 RayK

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 05:45 PM

What good is knowledge without application or the activity applied to that knowledge?

For example, a lot of young people today play an irrational amount of video games (which in a certain context is like a dream) and claim that they are great at the game. Well, when tested in the real game, let us say baseball, they are uaually terrible at it. The Central Nervous System/the brain makes speicific adaptations to certain demands, physical and mental. If all one does is think, or dream, about something they will never achieve that specific adaptation. I would offer that the people that saw better output misunderstood the real cause of their positive achieved effect. A focused, goal oriented mind that sets goals and achieves those goals can make a large difference than someone that is playing a sport with no goals or direction, hence lacking focus.

Another real world example is driving. I could sit in a Lazy Boy recliner all day and dream about being a race car driver. But until I actually get out there and attempted driving under real circumstances I have not done much nor can I become great at it.

#5 rtg24

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 07:07 PM

So would you say you can gain no additional improvement from practicing the activity during your sleep? There is a difference between a kid playing a video game, which in no way represents the real activity other than perhaps by showing an approximation on a screen, and somebody e.g. a ballroom dancer practicing the day's routine in his mind overnight which he had practiced physically the day before.

What I am wondering is
1. is there an improvement,
2. of what kind, and
3. how do I go about pursuing this improvement in the most efficient way possible?

Sure, it won't exercise the specific muscle groups but it will exercise the brain, and in some applications, for example remembering Chinese words (or arcane FSA regulations -_-), the upside has the potential to be the same as practicing the activity whilst awake.

Also, is there a downside? We sleep for a reason - is changing the content of sleep likely to affect us negatively and how?

I am intrigued because Tim Ferriss, despite a rather un-Objectivist purported personal philosophy ("I want to enjoy as much leisure as possible, right now, and work is just a way to buy it") has written many things which have helped me and others make life a lot more efficient. He is, in some ways, a really good practical efficiency expert, and has derived his methods from practical experience rather than quoting scientific studies.

#6 RayK

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 08:31 PM

While asleep a person is, obviously, not in a conscious state nor are they focused on their goals as this requires the opposite that being a conscious state. Riding a bicycle is something that one does while conscious. But when someone first begins they will make movements that cause them to fall or move in the wrong direction. After parctice, in a conscious state, (with all the thinking and movements that go with that practice) the subconscious automatizes the activity and almost no conscious thought is needed to pedal. To become good or efficient one must practice the activity which requires one to be conscious and for the most part very focused, then and only then can the subconsious automatically automatize that activity which no amount of attempting to cycle in one's unfocused sleeping mind will help one to become efficient at.

For further understanding of conscious, subconscious and psycho-epistemology I would offer that you read Ayn Rand's book Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology. I would consider this book the most important of Ayn Rand's non-fiction works.

#7 Bob Kolker

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 12:31 AM

I have just come across this Tim Ferriss post on lucid dreaming.

I would be very interested in the thoughts of more knowledgeable members about this. How does it work? Does it work? Do you need drugs? What are the implications in terms of what one can learn during sleep? Who wrote on this? Where can one find the studies?


Lucid dreaming is for real. I have been doing it for over thirty years now. I discovered how to do it purely by accident. No, you don't need drugs. All you need is the realization that one can take charge of his/her dream work. It is like learning to wiggle the ears or riding a bike. You get the "feel" for it by trying and pretty soon one can take charge of dream work, pretty much at will. It is like learning to ride a bike. Once you have the "feel" of the balance it becomes easier and easier to do.

One of the interesting consequences of my lucid dreaming is that I have not had a nightmare since I started to do it. I have had unpleasant dreams, I have had enigmatic dreams, but no dreams that wake me up in a sweat with a fright.

I am afraid that I can't give you an algorithm to use. It is like learning to ride a bike. You have to teach yourself how to do it.

Bob Kolker

#8 RayK

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 03:44 AM

Lucid dreaming is for real. I have been doing it for over thirty years now. I discovered how to do it purely by accident. No, you don't need drugs. All you need is the realization that one can take charge of his/her dream work. It is like learning to wiggle the ears or riding a bike. You get the "feel" for it by trying and pretty soon one can take charge of dream work, pretty much at will. It is like learning to ride a bike. Once you have the "feel" of the balance it becomes easier and easier to do.

Well, most neurological research and the scientist that do the research disagree with your statement and openly claim that they do not "know much about how or why humans dream." One of the things that reserachers do know is that there are 5 stages to a sleep cycle ending with REM (rapid eye movement) sleep. The average person spends about 50% of their sleep in stage 2 and about 20% in REM while the remaining times is split between the other stages. Also, when a person is awake and conscious they produce certain hormones that keep them awake and while one sleeps they produce a totally different set of hormones that keeps them asleep and recuperating. And research found during sleep studies showed that when people were awaken during the REM stage that most described bizarre and illogical tales/dreams.

#9 Betsy Speicher

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 05:26 AM

What I have read and evaluated from my own experience leads me to believe that dreaming is a function of the perceptual-level consciousness and that it is a process of integrating percepts experienced or thought about during the day into long-term memories and associations.

We also had a previous thread on dreaming here.
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Betsy's Law #2 - In the long run you get the kind of friends -- and the kind of enemies -- you deserve.




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