Rape fantasies in women Options

[Stephen Speicher]

It is often said that rape is about violence, not about sex. Yet, over the years I have often read that many women have very erotic and pleasurable rape fantasies. Some consider this a manifestation of psychological problems in these women, but I have an inkling of why a psychologically healthy woman might enjoy a rape fantasy. I wonder what others think?

[Ed from OC]

>Sorry, but smart isn't generally attractive to women. 
That I definitely disagree with, if you mean that it's asymmetrical!  I'm 1000% sure if you poll the women on this site that they -love- smart men.  [right][snapback]19848[/snapback][/right]

True, but I was discussing women in general. Objectivist women are a very small group, unfortunately.

>The bottom line for me is that only an intelligent woman can hold my interest for long. 

yes; but does she need to be your equal, or could she be a bit less (not a lot less)?

and... could she be your better?

Good question! I'd like to think so, but honestly, I don't think I've dated someone more intelligent than I. More successful, more educated, or made more money, sure.

I like women that challenge me, that surprise me. My biggest concern with dating someone more smart and successful would be: can I provide her with enough to keep her around? In other words, it isn't a problem, it's a benefit to date a smarter woman, but what about her perspective? Does she get enough from the relationship to stick with it? (If she doesn't, fine, we'll move on.)

Also, I don't think the issue really matters except when there's a wide variance between partners. What matters far more is interests and values in common. I don't size up a woman in terms of how smart she is or isn't. I follow the pleasure: do I enjoy her company? does she stimulate me (physically, emotionally/personally, and intellectually) or drain me? do I want to be with her? do I want to talk to her? does she say interesting things that make me think? do I spend time wondering what she's like (assuming I just met her)? etc.

And I've found that no amount of lists can account for the infinite variances in personal psychology and chemistry. Sure, there are a few "must-haves" and "must-avoids", but once I'm past that I just wing it.

How do I remain feminine, like AR did on the radio shows, composed and calm and happy, while this man seems not to understand a word I'm saying?  I won't want to follow him on his views.

That's an interesting comment. How is it unfeminine to disagree with someone? I get turned off by someone who doesn't think for herself. Confidence is sexy!

But, despite his saying he loves intelligent women, when I disagreed with one of his statements, he didn't respectfully ask why I disagreed on x.  He said he wanted to argue/"communicate" about it and flashed a few arbitrary [imho] assertions which, presumably, were to pique my interest in such a talk.  But to me I felt like, no, why would I want to argue with my date????  What's fun about that?

Teasing the other person, being deliberately provocative in a playful manner, can be a lot of fun, in context. Some people (lawyers, for instance) love being confrontational and get excited by the fight. (Others don't; different strokes, I guess.) This fellow sounds like something else was going on, though.

[Stephen Speicher]

Yes, she abandons control, but not in the same way as she does in real life. The fantasy part is as an immediate response to the man's uncontrollable passion, a passion so great that it gives no thought to what the woman wants. That is why it is a rape fantasy.[right][snapback]19811[/snapback][/right]

This is what confuses me, Steve. I think you said you agree that we shouldn't be calling this thread about rape fantasy, but here you say it is?

The rape part is that man takes what he wants, passion without concern for the woman. As the women describe it, the stranger just rips the clothes off their body and has his way.

If "rape" is not the best term to use here, then I am not sure what else would be better. In real life most women, just as you and others have described, need to first gain a sense of trust in the man in order to relinquish control. But, in the fantasy the woman does not need that, and instead without hesitation is overwhelmed with the uncontrollable passion of the man. That is why it is a fantasy, in the sense of not being true to life, being different from the woman's normal state. My thoughts on this is that the fantasy permits the metaphysically impossible, much like one might fantasize about time travel.

[Stephen Speicher]

I have read that that is a common fantasy among women.

where did you read that? any details would help.[right][snapback]19816[/snapback][/right]

I have read this repeatedly over the years, mostly from psychology journals. Also popular articles. I also recall glancing through a book or two. I have an extensive collection of journal papers from the hard sciences, but I rarely save these sort of psychology references. If you are really interested I suppose I could locate a few journal references, but I wouldn't be surprised if studies on this can also be found on the internet.

[Ed from OC]

Do you mean that do I fantasize only the men that I have personally met and physically attracted to? My answer to that is yes. It will be difficult for me to fantasize an imaginary man.
[right][snapback]19853[/snapback][/right]

Lu, if I may ask: what about a man who you don't know, but whose image you've seen? Is that something you can fantasize about as well? Guys are notorious for responding to visual stimulation, while women supposedly don't respond as strongly. Do you think that's true of women in general?

[Ed from OC]

If "rape" is not the best term to use here, then I am not sure what else would be better. [right][snapback]19860[/snapback][/right]

I have to agree that the term is inaccurate and undesirable. The actual details of real-world sexual violence are just so repulsive that I think the only women who fantasize about it have serious mental problems and/or extreme masochistic desires.

"Domination" is more accurate, I think. My guess (and, ladies, correct me if you disagree) is that the contrast with the daily gentile behavior is important. It is a fantasy of seeing the passionate desire unrestrained by social niceties and manners. It is a reflection of his confidence in just taking her, knowing she wants it, rather than hesitatingly asking for permission at every step of the way and restraining his desire. It is also the sense of being able to generate such desire in him.

[Lu Norton]

Lu, if I may ask: what about a man who you don't know, but whose image you've seen?  Is that something you can fantasize about as well?  Guys are notorious for responding to visual stimulation, while women supposedly don't respond as strongly.  Do you think that's true of women in general?
[right][snapback]19862[/snapback][/right]

Do you mean about a man whom I never met? a figure that I created in my mind? such as an ideal man? I have never experienced such fantasy. That man in my fantasy should exist, it is not necessary that he knows me or we have met. Like what I have said, it will be difficult for me to fantasize an imaginary man. For visualization purposes, it will be easier for me to fantasize a man who does exist and whom I have seen even in pictures.

I am not quite sure on your final question. I don’t know many women to gather enough evidence in that area.

[Stephen Speicher]

basically, the best is for men/women to have symmetrical fantasies, then we can meet each other and have splendid IRL experiences .  I don't think our fantasies are identical; only symmetry is required.

That is certainly one use or purpose of fantasy (I just caught on that "IRL" = "in real life"), but I do not think it the only one. For instance, outside of the sexual realm, fantasizing about time travel may serve no purpose in real life beyond the pleasure taken in the fantasy. I think the same can be true of sexual fantasies.

[Lu Norton]

It is a fantasy of seeing the passionate desire unrestrained by social niceties and manners.  It is a reflection of his confidence in just taking her, knowing she wants it, rather than hesitatingly asking for permission at every step of the way and restraining his desire.
[right][snapback]19863[/snapback][/right]

Exactly!

A man who is sure of what he desires. A man who is self-confident to do such a passionate move. That is my fantasy man! Of course, I also consider the physical attributes of my fantasy man.

[Stephen Speicher]

Maybe I should apologize for posting so much.

Apology not accepted. Just keep them coming!

By the way, my first thought, Steve, is that maybe you wonder if women's fantasies are like men's.  Is that right?

Oh, no. Certainly not about sex. If fantasy serves any psychological purpose, that purpose is too tied to differences in male-female psychology for the fantasies to be the same regarding sex.

Do men fantasize about female mermaids, that they don't know but whose value causes them to feel overwhelming passion to pursue?

I can't speak for other men, but I prefer a woman with beautiful legs.

[B. Royce]

As a side issue here, it is interesting that the innocent act of sex has not a simple verb to express it, while the forced act is expressed with the beautiful-sounding "rape". This is just English, of course; I don't know about other languages.

[free spirit]

[/QUOTE]Carrie,

Does this refer to finding the fantasy itself desirable and exciting, or desiring to act it out in real life? I can easily see how trust and safety are important for the latter, but I don't see the connection as easily for the former.

Ed [QUOTE]

Ed,
I'm not sure if I exactly understand your question. But I will try to answer it as I understand it.
I would have to have safety and trust in my fantasies and real life. My fantasies are just a prelude to real life, so definitely. There is nothing I would want to fantasize about that I wouldn't do in reality. Just as I couldn't fantasize about a beautiful man because he's beautiful. I would trust him in the sense that he would know his limits of how rough to go, what I like ect....

To respond to your inquiry about visual stimulation, I am MUCH more stimulated by intellectual/ mental power than by physical appearance. If he can look right into my soul with passionate, intelligent eyes that are alive with fire, then I'd melt in his arms...


There have been some very good looking men I've thought about in that capacity before, but for me to really fantasize about someone, I would have to know them to a certain degree. I would have to know that they would have qualities worth desiring, and even more so if they would be worthy of taking me.
But I couldn't imagine fantasizing about a stranger! The closest experience that I could understand would be projection, (projecting your ideal in a person)

~Carrie~

[Stephen Speicher]

How do you classify a psychologically healthy woman? Will you please provide examples? I am just curious.

The short answer is, whether man or woman, to be psychologically healthy is to have an integrated mind capable of honestly and openly dealing with reality. An Ayn Rand hero vs. villain provides many fine examples.

This is quite an interesting topic. I do not read women’s psychology books that much but I experience such erotic and pleasurable fantasies since I was a teenager. My concern is, am I psychologically healthy? I am not quite sure.

Such fantasies enlighten up a woman’s sexual life. It is a fuel that sets fire in a woman’s soul. To be needed, to be indulged – passionately – is every woman’s fantasies.

Oh, please do not take the mere mention of fantasies as some indicator of an unhealthy psychology. There is nothing inherently wrong with fantasy, as long as you clearly distinguish between what is fantasy and what is real.

[free spirit]

P.S Ed,

Yes, that is the question I had for the men. "Do men have a related fantasy, not of being dominated, but of dominating?" And "How do men view their role in sex in general"?

I am very curious on this....

elizabethlee,

I agree with Steven! Your posts are delighful! It sounds like you have gained a lot of insight from your life experience. I'm surprised you are single!
I agree, men are great......


~Carrie~

[Free Capitalist]

Just as an aside,

>Sorry, but smart isn't generally attractive to women. 
That I definitely disagree with, if you mean that it's asymmetrical!  I'm 1000% sure if you poll the women on this site that they -love- smart men. 

True, but I was discussing women in general. Objectivist women are a very small group, unfortunately.

Elizabeth, I don't think it's so much the smartness women are attracted to, as competence. A guy who's purely smart but extremely self-doubting and passive in all things will probably not be attractive, regardless of how big a numbers he can do prime factoring of in his head, or how well he can fix a computer. There was a mention in another thread recently of Bobby Fisher, the famous chess champion who had an absolutely indomitable analytical ability, genius even, and yet in real life was basically a loser and a second-hander regarding all of his opinions. Or take Bill Gates, undeniably a very smart guy, turning the other cheek to any would-be illegitimate claimant to his money. I would assume that's highly unattractive to a woman, regardless of smartness. That's what I think is really sought for: competence, not smartness per se, and so I don't think Objectivist women are any different in this respect at all -- they're just like all women, except they're maybe more explicitly aware about looking for that.

What may be different is that, since competence can express itself in different ways, is that they like different expressions of that competence, but in that sense I don't think that it's Objectivist women vs other women anymore, but simply different women and their personal preferences.

So tying this aside to the theme of the thread, the "rape fantasy" seems to be the expression a desire for probably the highest kind of competence in a man, one that simply can't be stopped or averted -- which, since this is a fantasy where the man can read the woman's mind and know her sanction, I find hard to find anything wrong with. But that's just a guy's perspective

[Stephen Speicher]

I think it's that sort of thing Steve is getting at.  I don't have that one, but I'm positive if we quizzed these ladies they'd say of course, it had to be a trustworthy stranger.

I've spoken with a couple of women about this (not Objectivists, one in her 20s and one in her 40s), and they both indicated otherwise. The trust simply was not an issue in the fantasy; in fact, it was the lack of concern for trust that made it such a fantasy, as opposed to how they would respond in real life.

[Free Capitalist]

Elizabeth, I don't think it's so much the smartness women are attracted to, as competence.

Err Not to imply that I'm more qualified to speak about women than you, at all! I meant that statement more as, "This is what you were really saying, right?"

[free spirit]

Free Capitalist,

Great point. That's a very important distinction, one that I agree with. It's not what he has in his mind, but how well he uses his knowledge.
I know I would much prefer a man who is skilled and very competent at what he does know, than a genius who has a bad epistemology or ethical code.

~Carrie~

[Free Capitalist]

Also the point about there having to be a stranger is interesting. I think it could still tie into this whole issue of desiring the highest amount of competence: a man who's already familiar runs the risk of already knowing you and your presence of sanction or lack thereof, whereas a stranger is just so metaphysically competent that he knows what's best for himself and for you as well, even without knowing you before. So in a sense, a stranger doing what a familiar man would requires him to have a greater degree of competence, which might explain the desire

[free spirit]

Let me clarify what I said, it's not his intellectual capacity, or how smart he is, but how well he uses the knowledge he has.


~C~

[Ed from OC]

I would have to have safety and trust in my fantasies and real life. My fantasies are just a prelude to real life, so definitely.  There is nothing I would want to fantasize about that I wouldn't do in reality. Just as I couldn't fantasize about a beautiful man because he's beautiful. I would trust him in the sense that he would know his limits of how rough to go, what I like ect....[right][snapback]19873[/snapback][/right]

But if you know it's a fantasy, why not just forget about the safety issue? If he's the guy you dream of, he wouldn't hurt you, right? Or am I missing the boat on this one, and part of the reason he's your ideal guy is that you can completely trust him? And also, which is more fundamental to the fantasy: that this man be safe for you, or that he knows you so completely?

What's interesting about the "trustworthy stranger" fantasy is that it is someone who you don't know, yet you can trust him and he knows you so well.

But you say "fantasies are just a prelude to real life." What about fantasies (sexual or otherwise) that are so over-the-top that you wouldn't ever actually seek to make it real, or it might not even be physically possible? I see nothing wrong with fantasies along those lines. Do you?

To respond to your inquiry about visual stimulation, I am MUCH more stimulated by intellectual/ mental power than by physical appearance.

That's in keeping with what I've heard from other women over the years.